Texas AG calling for change. - Page 2

Texas AG calling for change.

This is a discussion on Texas AG calling for change. within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Havok I really wish people would drop the whole mental illness thing anytime someone murders anyone other than a gang shooting or ...

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  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array RedSafety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    I really wish people would drop the whole mental illness thing anytime someone murders anyone other than a gang shooting or something connected to another crime.
    Then again, it seems many of those deemed "mentally ill" were also Muslim terrorists and almost all of them identified as Democrat. I won't comment on the obvious connection.
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    I heard about the TX incident right after it happened, but didn't watch the video until just now. That was an amazing response. That defender seemed cool and precise, took the guy out with one shot. It was not a long range shot, but not up close either. It seemed like a distance where some people, including some LEOs, have missed with a full mag. And the report I saw said six other congregants had their guns out also. They rightly held fire, but even if that first guy was not in position, or missed, that shooter was goin' down and fast. I will bet future shooters pass that church up.

    I am reminded of the St. James church shooting in S. Africa in the 90's. Two terrorists with military rifles and grenades, with a specific goal to kill at least 500 people. A visiting missionary, Charl Van Wyck, took them on with a Rossi 5-shot snubby, hitting one of them. That caused both of the cowards to run and flee in a waiting getaway car. Only 11 died and 50 were injured, IIRC. It doesn't take much to make a difference.
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    That video validates what our department training staff stressed repeatedly to our officers: One well placed shot ends the threat.

    Speed is fine, but situational awareness trumps speed. Our officers trained to discreetly draw their weapon and conceal it behind their thigh. I think @Chaplain Scott mentioned his department did the same. That works for armed civilians as well. Most people never see the weapon when so concealed. If it isn't needed, it can be reholstered discreetly.

    Situational awareness, working from a drawn weapon, plus the ability to place a shot out to extended distances exactly where it will do the most good instantly, makes for a very effective recipe for defense - be it by either LEO or armed civilian.
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  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Geezer's Avatar
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    The "new" law worked. This shooting shows that you're never exempt from any evil. The church is located in a nice neighborhood, in a town that is home to a lot of military and defense industry working families - not some slum neighborhood like what you'd expect. The shooter was from a "rougher" neighboring suburb of Ft. Worth. It's not surprising that other guns came out when the shooting started. It's interesting that the event received minimal news coverage - not like it would have been if a "Assault weapon" had been used. Just hope the shooter didn't die instantly.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    That video validates what our department training staff stressed repeatedly to our officers: One well placed shot ends the threat.

    Speed is fine, but situational awareness trumps speed. Our officers trained to discreetly draw their weapon and conceal it behind their thigh. I think @Chaplain Scott mentioned his department did the same. That works for armed civilians as well. Most people never see the weapon when so concealed. If it isn't needed, it can be reholstered discreetly.

    Situational awareness, working from a drawn weapon, plus the ability to place a shot out to extended distances exactly where it will do the most good instantly, makes for a very effective recipe for defense - be it by either LEO or armed civilian.
    How does this work when you are constantly standing up then sitting down and in many churches, moving to the front to take communion?
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSafety View Post
    Then again, it seems many of those deemed "mentally ill" were also Muslim terrorists and almost all of them identified as Democrat. I won't comment on the obvious connection.
    Not just that, but whether we agree with the reasoning or not, there are many different reasons people commit murder. I have said many times that no sane person would ever just murder random people. However, how many wars have been fought over religion? Someone going into a church here and killing a couple Christians is mental illness, but if itís a large group of Christians slaughtered by a large group of Muslims in Africa, is that also mental illness, or is that different?
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    VIP Member Array dangerranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
    How does this work when you are constantly standing up then sitting down and in many churches, moving to the front to take communion?
    I don't think he ment to carry that way, But when you ID a bad actor starting with the gun in hand makes the draw so much faster.DR

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
    How does this work when you are constantly standing up then sitting down and in many churches, moving to the front to take communion?
    The obvious answer is that your situational awareness should alert you to the possibility of trouble before you have to draw. I don't think anyone advocates drawing the weapon and going about daily routine activities with the gun in hand. In this latest incident, it was clear that a man in long black clothing, hoodie, fake wig and beard should trigger your situational awareness. That is the time to have the gun in a position in which the time delay of the draw stroke is removed. In church, I could easily draw and conceal the weapon under my thigh when sitting. Obviously I wouldn't carry it in hand when going to the front.

    And if I happen to be standing, and the threat is becoming clear, I can easily conceal the gun from the threat's sight behind my thigh.

    @Havok

    Not just that, but whether we agree with the reasoning or not, there are many different reasons people commit murder. I have said many times that no sane person would ever just murder random people. However, how many wars have been fought over religion? Someone going into a church here and killing a couple Christians is mental illness, but if itís a large group of Christians slaughtered by a large group of Muslims in Africa, is that also mental illness, or is that different?
    Obviously there is a significant difference between people who see themselves as being at war killing the enemy, and people who simply decide to go on a murder spree. However, mental illness is considered on a case by case basis. IMHO mental illness should never become an excuse for murderous behavior. Most people who work with criminals understand that not all mental illness is the same. There are many varieties.
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  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    The obvious answer is that your situational awareness should alert you to the possibility of trouble before you have to draw. I don't think anyone advocates drawing the weapon and going about daily routine activities with the gun in hand. In this latest incident, it was clear that a man in long black clothing, hoodie, fake wig and beard should trigger your situational awareness. That is the time to have the gun in a position in which the time delay of the draw stroke is removed. In church, I could easily draw and conceal the weapon under my thigh when sitting. Obviously I wouldn't carry it in hand when going to the front.

    And if I happen to be standing, and the threat is becoming clear, I can easily conceal the gun from the threat's sight behind my thigh.

    @Havok



    Obviously there is a significant difference between people who see themselves as being at war killing the enemy, and people who simply decide to go on a murder spree. However, mental illness is considered on a case by case basis. IMHO mental illness should never become an excuse for murderous behavior. Most people who work with criminals understand that not all mental illness is the same. There are many varieties.
    In the US, people refer to incidents as terrorism or mental illness as their go-to answer without actually knowing what those terms really mean.

    And what is the difference? Someoneís approval of the killing? Whether they wear the uniform of some guerilla/terrorist group? Either way itís murder over religion.why is one mental illness but the other is obviously not, even if they kill for the same reason?
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  11. #25
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    In the US, people refer to incidents as terrorism or mental illness as their go-to answer without actually knowing what those terms really mean.

    And what is the difference? Someoneís approval of the killing? Whether they wear the uniform of some guerilla/terrorist group? Either way itís murder over religion.why is one mental illness but the other is obviously not, even if they kill for the same reason?
    A great deal depends on who you kill - and why. A terrorist blowing up a crowd of people which includes innocents (not enemy combatants) is guilty of premeditated murder. A soldier who accidentally kills innocents (collaterally) while engaging enemy combatants is usually not guilty of murder. Someone who just decides to intentionally commit murder may or may not be mentally ill. I agree that the terms are bandied about far too much today - quite possibly being used to control the discussion and keep an agenda viable.
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  12. #26
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    Kentucky has always been a gun friendly state, in or out of church. Glad that Texas is finally catching up.
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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dangerranger View Post
    I don't think he ment to carry that way, But when you ID a bad actor starting with the gun in hand makes the draw so much faster.DR
    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    The obvious answer is that your situational awareness should alert you to the possibility of trouble before you have to draw. I don't think anyone advocates drawing the weapon and going about daily routine activities with the gun in hand. In this latest incident, it was clear that a man in long black clothing, hoodie, fake wig and beard should trigger your situational awareness. That is the time to have the gun in a position in which the time delay of the draw stroke is removed. In church, I could easily draw and conceal the weapon under my thigh when sitting. Obviously I wouldn't carry it in hand when going to the front.

    And if I happen to be standing, and the threat is becoming clear, I can easily conceal the gun from the threat's sight behind my thigh.
    I read the post in question as entering a church, taking your seat in a pew, then discretely removing your sidearm and placing it under your upper leg. I did not read it as going in, gun in hand, from the parking lot to the pew.

    As for comments about SA, I couldn't agree more. I practice this as much as I am able when out and about. Taking seats in restaurants, walking to and from my vehicle, and a host of other conditions and situations; exit sign locations, where people are crowded, etc. But in a church, it can get pretty crowded for some services (I have been in a place where there were around 3,500 worshipers present). That would be a gold mine for someone bent on racking up a body count.

    I think the OP of the post in question makes a good point. I was just curious as to how he might bring this about what with standing up, sitting down, and leaving his place in the pew momentarily. Might other parishioners see his sidearm (I would bet he has that one taken care of)?
    Last edited by SouthernBoyVA; December 31st, 2019 at 03:34 PM.
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  14. #28
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    A great deal depends on who you kill - and why. A terrorist blowing up a crowd of people which includes innocents (not enemy combatants) is guilty of premeditated murder. A soldier who accidentally kills innocents (collaterally) while engaging enemy combatants is usually not guilty of murder. Someone who just decides to intentionally commit murder may or may not be mentally ill. I agree that the terms are bandied about far too much today - quite possibly being used to control the discussion and keep an agenda viable.
    Iíve made no mention of killing enemy combatants or accidentally killing anyone. Iíve provided two examples of the same crime being committed in different locations and shown how it is viewed completely differently by people.
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  15. #29
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
    I read the post in question as entering a church, taking your seat in a pew, then discretely removing your sidearm and placing it under your upper leg. I did not read it as going in, gun in hand, from the parking lot to the pew.
    Not exactly what I said. I said when your situational awareness makes you aware that someone doesn't fit...when there is a possible threat - when you sense that there might be someone present who might intend harm - NOT just taking the gun out and laying it on the seat as a matter of standard practice.

    As for comments about SA, I couldn't agree more. I practice this as much as I am able when out and about. Taking seats in restaurants, walking to and from my vehicle, and a host of other conditions and situations; exit sign locations, where people are crowded, etc. But in a church, it can get pretty crowded for some services (I have been in a place where there were around 3,500 worshipers present). That would be a gold mine for someone bent on racking up a body count.

    I think the OP of the post in question makes a good point. I was just curious as to how he might bring this about what with standing up, sitting down, and leaving his place in the pew momentarily. Might other parishioners see his sidearm (I would bet he has that one taken care of)?
    The key to what I said is to allow your "gut" (our second brain) to speak clearly and for us to hear it speaking about a possible threat and acting to reduce the sometimes long draw time from concealment. If you pocket carry, put your hand in your pocket on the gun. This is something each person would have to work out on their own.
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  16. #30
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    Not just that, but whether we agree with the reasoning or not, there are many different reasons people commit murder. I have said many times that no sane person would ever just murder random people. However, how many wars have been fought over religion? Someone going into a church here and killing a couple Christians is mental illness, but if itís a large group of Christians slaughtered by a large group of Muslims in Africa, is that also mental illness, or is that different?
    There is what you said. Mental illness is not defined by the action, even though some actions may seem to be self-defining. Determining whether the act of causing the death of another human being is defined as murder for whatever reason, or killing as an act of war, is defined by action. A soldier killing another soldier in combat is usually defined as killing, not murder. Killing on the battlefield is a reasonable act. Murdering defenseless people is not a reasonable act. Generally speaking.

    I'm not sure what you are arguing here. A layperson (which is anyone who is not a trained mental health professional) defining someone as being mentally ill has absolutely no meaning in a medical sense. Mental illness is determined by a professional on a case by case basis. The act itself may be considered as a part of the diagnosis, but there are a great many other components considered as well.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

    "What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." - Thomas Jefferson

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