Red Flag Laws - Apologists are gearing up with legal arguments to fight for them...

Red Flag Laws - Apologists are gearing up with legal arguments to fight for them...

This is a discussion on Red Flag Laws - Apologists are gearing up with legal arguments to fight for them... within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; https://www.jurist.org/commentary/20...red-flag-laws/ "......More generally, opponents characterize red flag laws as constitutional outliers, since they do not require a trial in advance of temporary removal. In fact, ...

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Thread: Red Flag Laws - Apologists are gearing up with legal arguments to fight for them...

  1. #1
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    Red Flag Laws - Apologists are gearing up with legal arguments to fight for them...

    https://www.jurist.org/commentary/20...red-flag-laws/

    "......More generally, opponents characterize red flag laws as constitutional outliers, since they do not require a trial in advance of temporary removal. In fact, temporary deprivations are not foreign to law. Indeed, states have modeled red flag removals on domestic violence restraining orders, which temporarily deprive alleged abusers of significant liberty interests, including in some cases access to the residence and custodial rights, without a trial. Civil commitment proceedings, which can result in involuntary confinement in a mental institution for extended periods, also do not require full-blown trials. The process required varies with the nature of the deprivation and the risks involved. Thus, a higher standard of proof and greater process may be required for involuntary commitment on grounds of mental illness than for other temporary restrictions on a person’s liberty......"

    I think some in the Anti-2A movement are aware of the precarious nature of the Red Flag "Laws" and are laying the groundwork by fellow-traveling "law" professors for citation when the cases arise in various Courts.
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    I find Red Flag Laws to be very slippery slope. Ripe for abuse as what happened in CO, and the lack of due process. In TX, civil commitment does require a trial and I only know this because I was on a jury for such a proceeding.

    Pretty soon there will be Red Flag Laws regarding Conservative Speech.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGunTX View Post
    I find Red Flag Laws to be very slippery slope. Ripe for abuse as what happened in CO, and the lack of due process. In TX, civil commitment does require a trial and I only know this because I was on a jury for such a proceeding.

    Pretty soon there will be Red Flag Laws regarding Conservative Speech.
    Think Hate Speech/Hate Crime laws. They're already here .
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatorbait51 View Post
    Think Hate Speech/Hate Crime laws. They're already here .
    Sadly, the US Supreme court counts obvious previous errors as on the same footing as well-reasoned and constitutionally based decisions. This moronic approach is called by legal apologists "precedent".
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    One Fine Day Real America will Wake Up to the Fact that our 2A rights are being Negated Period!. As the Demo`s take over Virginia along with Bloomberg`s Money Hopefully will Not spread across America.. Real America,Please Prepare as the onslaught is coming and We The People either Fight back or live on our Knees to the Left=NO!!!.

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    At one point before Red Flag Laws became a known thing, I had actually supported a system that allowed family members to petition a court to get an adjudication that prohibited a person from owning a gun. Even with that feeling I am still against Red Flag Laws as being executed.

    My thought was on instances where there was known documented factual proof that the person should be a prohibited person based on current prohibitions just that for one reason or another the system had failed. Examples of what I mean:
    - Domestic abuser that had been convicted but the charged was pled down so the system didn’t see it as “domestic violence” or where the victim didn’t pursue charges but family witnessed and police/medical documentation exists.
    - Family member with an actual mental health diagnosis which includes violent outbursts making them a danger, but the mental health professionals had not brought to court

    I know many do not agree with me even on this, but this is what I envisioned.

    Then I started seeing the laws being proposed and the execution and realized it was nothing like what I had envisioned. The current Red Flag Laws and Bills are left too subjective with no actual proof of crime required and the person is being served before he even knows he is accused. Then what little data I have found regarding what happens after the person has a day in court, shows most never get extended meaning that they were unfounded once challenged.

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    If you're incompetent there is Probate Court. If you are a felon there is Superior/Federal District Court. I am wholly opposed to people going around those options, even in circumstances such as described in the post above where people "had not brought to court" or "the charged was pled down". Bottom line is that each is either lack of due process or double jeopardy or both.
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    For the lebenteenth time - when will it come out that such laws are only for gun confiscation, not for safety. One whose guns have been taken might just then get dangerous enough to go run people over with a truck, bash in heads with a bat, cut people with any number of objects left in their homes.

    Objects don't kill people, people wielding the objects do.
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    Exactly.

    Even if we posit a person with homicidal intentions toward a particular person or persons, taking the guns away doesn't make the homicidal intentions go away--and now you have a pissed off person with homicidal intentions toward a particular person/persons who maintains access to any number of blades, hammers, baseball bats, ropes, automobiles, and even bare hands.

    Same thing with a person with suicidal intentions--take away the gun and leave them without any care for the suicidal intentions and maintaining access to blades, ropes, bridges, automobiles (a number of 1-car crashes are considered to be probable suicides).

    But worst of all is that there is *any* possibility that a person with neither homicidal nor suicidal intent loses property without due process and may be faced with an insurmountable obstacle to regain that property (requirements to prove a negative).
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    Red flag, hate speech and what ever else. They are all part of the bigger picture, the elimination of due process and of course, the constitution itself.

    You can not be proper peasants until these things, along with any means of self defense are eliminated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdprof View Post
    For the lebenteenth time - when will it come out that such laws are only for gun confiscation, not for safety. One whose guns have been taken might just then get dangerous enough to go run people over with a truck, bash in heads with a bat, cut people with any number of objects left in their homes.

    Objects don't kill people, people wielding the objects do.
    When will it come out? It is already out! Anyone who cares to actually look beyond their preconceived notions (and the propaganda saturated narratives we are constantly being fed) can see it for what it is. It seems most people (present company excepted) prefer to remain comfortably ignorant and in denial rather than face the reality as plain as the nose on one's face.

    Forgive my frustration, I just attended the pro 2A rally in Olympia Friday and it left me feeling a bit discouraged. The real action will be taking place this coming week when the Law and Justice committee looks at the upcoming gun bills. Hopefully enough who attended the rally will show up to testify where it might actually do some good.

    I did get some good face-to-face time with one of my representatives to discuss things and the obstacles she faces within the legislature. She is on our side but is a voice in the legislative wilderness. My other two reps skipped out early, it being Friday. Well, that is what mail and the phone system are for.
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    I hope everyone notices the word salad used by progresses.

    1. Opponents do not use the term "constitutional outlier". That doesn't mean anything. We say unconstitutional.

    2. Restraining order/personal protection order/etc. denies an individual access to another person. It may temporarily suspend firearm purchasing rights. It does not seize their property.

    3. Involuntary commitment allows the defendant to face their accuser and present evidence in their defense.

    Red flag laws only require an affidavit signed by someone who thinks the accused should have their guns seized.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Struckat View Post
    Red flag, hate speech and what ever else. They are all part of the bigger picture, the elimination of due process and of course, the constitution itself.

    You can not be proper peasants until these things, along with any means of self defense are eliminated.
    In order for any despotic government to subjugate the People, it must do two things;

    o Control the dissemination of information.
    o Remove from the People their ability to resist.

    Ask yourself this. What has been going on over the past several decades culminating in what we are seeing in current America?
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    America First!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
    In order for any despotic government to subjugate the People, it must do two things;

    o Control the dissemination of information.
    o Remove from the People their ability to resist.

    Ask yourself this. What has been going on over the past several decades culminating in what we are seeing in current America?
    Most were too busy responding: “tin foil hat”, “conspiracy theorists” and worse to even pay attention. They are shell-shocked or gobsmacked, as my Brit mates would say.

    Few have answers because they don’t comprehend the problem.

    Books have been written, lectures given, videos made yet they’ve managed to “check out” as opposed to being curious enough and motivated enough to dig DEEPLY - as if their very liberty and Lives (and the lives of their loved ones) hung in the balance.

    It’s unfathomable.


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    Quote Originally Posted by The Old Anglo View Post
    One Fine Day Real America will Wake Up to the Fact that our 2A rights are being Negated Period!. As the Demo`s take over Virginia along with Bloomberg`s Money Hopefully will Not spread across America.. Real America,Please Prepare as the onslaught is coming and We The People either Fight back or live on our Knees to the Left=NO!!!.
    It’s much larger than “guns”...


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