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God help Texas

This is a discussion on God help Texas within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; There are plenty of billionaire conservatives, they just appear detached from the fight. Most of them bankroll libertarians and conservatives with gusto, I just wish ...

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  1. #16
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    There are plenty of billionaire conservatives, they just appear detached from the fight. Most of them bankroll libertarians and conservatives with gusto, I just wish some would fall off the truck and land on us.
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  2. #17
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    I want to dispute this money thing a bit. I am not saying it is not important, but it is not as simple as "put in a shiny nickel and out comes the prize." Some thoughts from our recent bad experience in VA:
    • Money cannot make voters vote a certain way. It can make legislators vote a certain way, but that is a double-edged sword. Street level activism can beat money if it is done well and intensively enough.
    • Money sometimes goes where you don't want it to. VA was once a strong Tea Party state. When it was, there was no way gun control could get passed in VA. But it was the Republicans that ruined it. They started throwing a lot of money at the Tea Party, but then demanded the Tea Party toe the Republican line. So this was a case where street-level activism was successful and that attracted money, but then that money ruined the activism.
    • So even if you are a pro-gun independent, Libertarian, or even moderate Democrat, the math of the situation is that the decisive number of pro-gun votes in the legislature is going to be cast by traditional Republicans. But that I mean non-RINO Republicans. And you are only going to have that if you have a strong, non-RINO state Republican Party. The first thing I would recommend Texans do is get their Republican Party strong and in line. And a lot of that is behind the scenes. You can surely name your governor and your legislators, but can you name your state Republican State Chairman and Vice Chairman? Can you name your Republican District Reps? Do you know anything about those people? Are you a member? Have you attended their public meetings? I cannot stress how important this is. The lack of this is the single biggest thing that sunk us in VA.
    • Conservative money is going to go to organizations that deserve it as shown by their efforts. Money just thrown at a cause is useless. Be doing something that deserves the money. And don't let any Republicans take so much of it that they get corrupted. The formula is "A Republican + Too Much Donated Money = A RINO." Reject money that is pulling you away from the cause.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    Guys the solution to Mike Bloomberg is not politics, it is MONEY. Find a billionaire who likes to destroy other billionaires and you have your man.
    Can Trump be Governor and POTUS? Asking for a friend...
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    I want to dispute this money thing a bit. I am not saying it is not important, but it is not as simple as "put in a shiny nickel and out comes the prize." Some thoughts from our recent bad experience in VA:
    • Money cannot make voters vote a certain way.
    Horse hockey. When El Bloomburg promises $$$ billions to make things right for blacks--He just bought a hell of a lot of votes! He is spending more to influence the next election than the Russians could ever afford.
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  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Horse hockey. When El Bloomburg promises $$$ billions to make things right for blacks--He just bought a hell of a lot of votes! He is spending more to influence the next election than the Russians could ever afford.
    You misunderstand me. Money can definitely influence voters, but so can other things. But every voter still makes their own decision to vote or not vote and can still cast whatever vote they want. And Bloomberg can buy ads that make promises that the politicians he supports will give people what they want. But Bloomberg personally will not give anyone what they want and people can choose not to believe that Bloomberg's candidates will deliver and they often don't.

    VA had Bloomberg money in previous elections and his money failed. Every state has outside money and influences, all the time. That has been true as long as we have had elections in this country. What I am talking about is factors that tip the balance. People are saying Bloomberg money tipped the balance in VA and it didn't. That influence was always there, but kept in check. What I described in my post are the factors that can flip a red state blue.
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  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    I want to dispute this money thing a bit. I am not saying it is not important, but it is not as simple as "put in a shiny nickel and out comes the prize." Some thoughts from our recent bad experience in VA:
    • Money cannot make voters vote a certain way. It can make legislators vote a certain way, but that is a double-edged sword. Street level activism can beat money if it is done well and intensively enough.
    • Money sometimes goes where you don't want it to. VA was once a strong Tea Party state. When it was, there was no way gun control could get passed in VA. But it was the Republicans that ruined it. They started throwing a lot of money at the Tea Party, but then demanded the Tea Party toe the Republican line. So this was a case where street-level activism was successful and that attracted money, but then that money ruined the activism.
    • So even if you are a pro-gun independent, Libertarian, or even moderate Democrat, the math of the situation is that the decisive number of pro-gun votes in the legislature is going to be cast by traditional Republicans. But that I mean non-RINO Republicans. And you are only going to have that if you have a strong, non-RINO state Republican Party. The first thing I would recommend Texans do is get their Republican Party strong and in line. And a lot of that is behind the scenes. You can surely name your governor and your legislators, but can you name your state Republican State Chairman and Vice Chairman? Can you name your Republican District Reps? Do you know anything about those people? Are you a member? Have you attended their public meetings? I cannot stress how important this is. The lack of this is the single biggest thing that sunk us in VA.
    • Conservative money is going to go to organizations that deserve it as shown by their efforts. Money just thrown at a cause is useless. Be doing something that deserves the money. And don't let any Republicans take so much of it that they get corrupted. The formula is "A Republican + Too Much Donated Money = A RINO." Reject money that is pulling you away from the cause.
    As always, I appreciate your thoughts...BUT...I didn't say where the money has to go! The real question is, "Has the fact that Boomberg is a billionaire made a significant change in the political climate of VA?"

    Money thrown at a cause by Boomberg worked in this case. Whether he threw it at RINOS, Republicans, Communists, or the dogcatcher, it flipped your state. Until we start thinking outside the box, such ancient tactics will usually win. If we don't learn the reasons a state takes a 180, we're doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past.

    I suspect a huge number of voters in America don't feel they have any influence whatsoever with any politician anymore. Since most politicians enter office more or less 'wealthy" and emerge in a few years "super wealthy", it is probably safe to assume they are being bought and paid for by someone. Since they do almost no real work, where does the money come from? What is the key to controlling them?

    BTW This is the way EVERYTHING works, and has always worked, in third world countries - like Mexico. Tell me we're not seeing America turning into a third world country.

    Tell me I'm wrong.
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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    As always, I appreciate your thoughts...BUT...I didn't say where the money has to go! The real question is, "Has the fact that Boomberg is a billionaire made a significant change in the political climate of VA?"

    Money thrown at a cause by Boomberg worked in this case. Whether he threw it at RINOS, Republicans, Communists, or the dogcatcher, it flipped your state. Until we start thinking outside the box, such ancient tactics will usually win. If we don't learn the reasons a state takes a 180, we're doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past.

    I suspect a huge number of voters in America don't feel they have any influence whatsoever with any politician anymore. Since most politicians enter office more or less 'wealthy" and emerge in a few years "super wealthy", it is probably safe to assume they are being bought and paid for by someone. Since they do almost no real work, where does the money come from? What is the key to controlling them?

    BTW This is the way EVERYTHING works, and has always worked, in third world countries - like Mexico. Tell me we're not seeing America turning into a third world country.

    Tell me I'm wrong.
    I am not saying you're wrong. What I'm saying is the situation is more complex than a lot of people make it out to be and that while money is definitely a factor, it is not the only factor and sometimes it works in ways that are the opposite of what logic says it should.

    Also, if we are going say that if Bloomberg pours money into a state, that state is necessarily doomed, then we are saying there is nothing we can do to stop gun control in every state. I don't think that is true. I think if people learn the dynamics of how money works in the political system, they can be better prepared.

    One thing you are wrong about regarding the VA legislature. All our legislators are part time and earn less than 20K a year. That means they all are retired, have well to do spouses or have day jobs. Most of them are not rich and don't get rich off being in the legislature. Outside of outright bribes, which I think they would get caught at, their only interest in money is campaign funds. And they don't all get outside money. Bloomberg targets key races, not all of them.

    So if we can't beat them on money, we need to have a better strategy, and understanding how the enemy operates is key to that.
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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    As always, I appreciate your thoughts...BUT...I didn't say where the money has to go! The real question is, "Has the fact that Boomberg is a billionaire made a significant change in the political climate of VA?"

    Money thrown at a cause by Boomberg worked in this case. Whether he threw it at RINOS, Republicans, Communists, or the dogcatcher, it flipped your state. Until we start thinking outside the box, such ancient tactics will usually win. If we don't learn the reasons a state takes a 180, we're doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past.

    I suspect a huge number of voters in America don't feel they have any influence whatsoever with any politician anymore. Since most politicians enter office more or less 'wealthy" and emerge in a few years "super wealthy", it is probably safe to assume they are being bought and paid for by someone. Since they do almost no real work, where does the money come from? What is the key to controlling them?

    BTW This is the way EVERYTHING works, and has always worked, in third world countries - like Mexico. Tell me we're not seeing America turning into a third world country.

    Tell me I'm wrong.
    Can you say "term limits"? Fat chance that'll happen with Congress or even with state legislatures. That's one of the reasons why no one thinks that their vote really counts. And if you're a "small time" financial donor, you're not going to have any pull either. Some people say that the voting cycle is just as effective as term limits but I don't agree with that.
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  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    I am not saying you're wrong. What I'm saying is the situation is more complex than a lot of people make it out to be and that while money is definitely a factor, it is not the only factor and sometimes it works in ways that are the opposite of what logic says it should.
    I don't have time for a lengthy discussion. I will say that it is ironic that things have gone the way they have in VA. The answer to that may not just be "business as usual."

    Also, if we are going say that if Bloomberg pours money into a state, that state is necessarily doomed, then we are saying there is nothing we can do to stop gun control in every state. I don't think that is true. I think if people learn the dynamics of how money works in the political system, they can be better prepared.
    I can be prepared to lay down on a bed of nails. But I have little way to combat the influx of money into the political system.

    One thing you are wrong about regarding the VA legislature. All our legislators are part time and earn less than 20K a year. That means they all are retired, have well to do spouses or have day jobs. Most of them are not rich and don't get rich off being in the legislature. Outside of outright bribes, which I think they would get caught at, their only interest in money is campaign funds. And they don't all get outside money. Bloomberg targets key races, not all of them.
    Politicians have been getting away with much worse crimes than bribery for decades. With enormous power comes enormous temptation. I expect VA does not have laws forcing anyone who holds office to disclose their tax returns. As a result, you only have their word they are being completely honest with their constituency. I pray you're right, but I won't hold my breath.

    So if we can't beat them on money, we need to have a better strategy, and understanding how the enemy operates is key to that.
    Everyone thought they knew how to conduct a war until 1939 when a dictator launched something unseen and rolled over all the conventional thinking of the day. My basic question is simple, "Why can we not beat them on money? Or even able to shape the battlefield to our advantage? Are all the super wealthy people in the world socialist/communists?"

    Anyway, my general feeling is that there needs to be a day of reckoning.
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  11. #25
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    Maine is a perfect example of grassroots activism beating Bloomberg money in 2016. In 2019 we beat down all of the stupidity from his astroturf groups.

    Get organized, get active, and show up in force in your respective capitals.
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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    I want to dispute this money thing a bit. I am not saying it is not important, but it is not as simple as "put in a shiny nickel and out comes the prize." Some thoughts from our recent bad experience in VA:
    • Money cannot make voters vote a certain way. It can make legislators vote a certain way, but that is a double-edged sword. Street level activism can beat money if it is done well and intensively enough.
    • Money sometimes goes where you don't want it to. VA was once a strong Tea Party state. When it was, there was no way gun control could get passed in VA. But it was the Republicans that ruined it. They started throwing a lot of money at the Tea Party, but then demanded the Tea Party toe the Republican line. So this was a case where street-level activism was successful and that attracted money, but then that money ruined the activism.
    • So even if you are a pro-gun independent, Libertarian, or even moderate Democrat, the math of the situation is that the decisive number of pro-gun votes in the legislature is going to be cast by traditional Republicans. But that I mean non-RINO Republicans. And you are only going to have that if you have a strong, non-RINO state Republican Party. The first thing I would recommend Texans do is get their Republican Party strong and in line. And a lot of that is behind the scenes. You can surely name your governor and your legislators, but can you name your state Republican State Chairman and Vice Chairman? Can you name your Republican District Reps? Do you know anything about those people? Are you a member? Have you attended their public meetings? I cannot stress how important this is. The lack of this is the single biggest thing that sunk us in VA.
    • Conservative money is going to go to organizations that deserve it as shown by their efforts. Money just thrown at a cause is useless. Be doing something that deserves the money. And don't let any Republicans take so much of it that they get corrupted. The formula is "A Republican + Too Much Donated Money = A RINO." Reject money that is pulling you away from the cause.
    I disagree, Madison Ave works. Or put another way:
    If a lie is only printed often enough, it becomes a quasi-truth, and if such a truth is repeated often enough, it becomes an article of belief, a dogma, and men will die for it.


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  13. #27
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    @CWOUSCG : So does it work on you? Do you vote how Madison Ave. tells you? Does everyone you know do that too?
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    @CWOUSCG : So does it work on you? Do you vote how Madison Ave. tells you? Does everyone you know do that too?
    If it didn't work they wouldn't spend the money now would they?


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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWOUSCG View Post
    If it didn't work they wouldn't spend the money now would they?
    You didn't answer my question...

    Here's another question: Why did Trump beat Hillary when she outspent him on advertising 2:1?

    I will answer your question, though: Yes, advertising works, but it doesn't work 100% and there are other things that work also. FWIW, I have one of my masters degrees in this field and I have taught advertising and public relations at two universities...
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  16. #30
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    My bad. I forgot you just like to argue and I'm not up for that tonight. Have a good evening.


    Send bachelors and come heavily armed.
    The difference between a Socialist and a Communist is that the Socialist doesn't have all the guns yet.
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