Defensive Carry banner
Cancel
Create thread New Forums

DA really any safer than carrying cocked and locked?

Jump to Latest
7K views 31 replies 24 participants last post by  Chuck R.  
N
#1 ·
As the title says, is DA carry any safer? I typically carry a Sig P938 and personally prefer cocked and locked, but it seems like there is a bit of a negative connotation about this versus double action striker fired or DA/SA guns
 
#2 · (Edited)
Not really, but it depends on the specific design. The 1911 is safest in Condition 1, as the safety blocks the sear.

DA designs typically rely on a lowered hammer to achieve revolver-like DA trigger pulls, but how that's acheived leaves me a little uneasy. A decocker device such as Sig's typically raises a firing pin block as the hammer is being lowered, but I prefer a manual hammer lowering. I trust myself more than unseen mechanical devices!
 
#4 ·
gasmitty said:
Not really, but it depends on the specific desigh. The 1911 is safest in Condition 1, as the safety blocks the sear.

DA designs typically rely on a lowered hammer to achieve revolver-like DA trigger pulls, but how that's acheived leaves me a little uneasy. A decocker device such as Sig's typically raises a firing pin block as the hammer is being lowered, but I prefer a manual hammer lowering. I trust myself more than unseen mechanical devices!
Click to expand...
After I had a FEG PA-63 discharge while decocking, I stopped using decockers.

Luckily I was at the range and the gun was pointing downrange. I couldn't possibly count how many times I've used a decocker in my house or car before that happened. But with this gun, I could fire it over and over using the decocker.
 
#3 ·
There's nothing unsafe about it as long as it's in the the cocked and LOCKED condition. Safety is between your ears, not what's in your holster.

Just make sure you have a high rep count drawing the gun and disengaging that safety till you can't do it wrong unless you tried. This usually takes hundreds if not a couple thousand reps to become true muscle memory. I like striker fired guns personally, but if I was to carry something like a CZ or 1911 I would prefer cocked and locked over DA/SA. I just personally don't like the two different trigger pulls. I spent a lot of time with the M9 and shot well with it, but just never cared for it.
 
#5 ·
I have, or have had, them all. Revolvers, da/sa, 1911's, strikers, safe action triggers, grip safeties, de-cockers, Colt, Ruger, S&W, Sig, Glock, Springfield, Baretta, Charter, Taurus, Walther, CZ -- there aren't many I haven't tried in the search for the perfect pistol. IT DOESNT EXIST....

It's a personal preference thing. But what I carry the most is a 1911 type design, cocked & locked -- most likely from decades of training on that platform. I just can't warm up to polymer and safe action triggers hurt my finger too much to train like a person should....

YMMV....
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
F
#6 ·
There all safe as long as you keep your fingers off the trigger, i use to wonder about striker fire pistols the same way but now I have confidence in the design of both. I truly believe the weak link is the operator.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
 
#7 ·
Not really. A decocked DA/SA can still fire if the trigger snags on something, but the chance is extremely small due to the heavy pull weight. Condition 1 is safe because the sear is blocked, so nothing can happen until you disengage the safeties.
 
#9 ·
Cocked and locked with a well designed manual safety, striker fired, actual DAO with a hammer, SA/DA....it doesn't matter. Squabbles about what is "safer" or "safest" are not relevant. Train with what you own, use a quality holster and belt for that quality gun, become proficient and confident, and don't let the endless rationalizations of interwebs commandos drive you crazy.

MINDSET > TACTICS > SKILL > GEAR
 
#11 ·
The only series of events (and it HAS actually happened) that hint toward a DA being "safer" is some circumstances than a SA is (IMHO) this. A SWAT team enters a house to serve a dangerous-felon warrant. The door is breached and the team enters, in-line as close support. Pistols are are low-ready as they spread-out (pre-assigned) to sweep the house. The 3rd LEO in line is carrying a 1911 variant. He has switched his thumb-safety off since the pistol is IN HIS hands. The felon is hiding in a hall closet and comes bursting-out precisely in time to hit the rigiht elbow of the LEO with the out-swinging door. The door strikes the LEO's "funny bone" causing his pistol's POA to elevate & a reflexive tightening of his right hand. Because of the short trigger-pull of a 1911, he inadvertently shoots the team member in front of him. If that pistol had the longer trigger-stroke of a DA or (some) striker-fired pistols, the likelihood of that AD might have been lessened. And yes, if the thumb safety was still UP (until the MOMENT of firing) the scenario would have been negated entirely.

This isn't intended as an argument or even as my opinion, it's just...cerebral chewing-gum. :yup:
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#13 ·
A lot of guys like a DA 1st pull for an added measure of safety.

There's been several studies conducted that confirm that even with training, police under stress often end up with their fingers on their triggers without being conscious of it. Could it be a problem with an SA trigger? I suppose it could:

n his first study, 33 male and 13 female officers of different ranks and years of service, were sent into a room to arrest a "suspect" and to "act in a way
they thought appropriate" while doing so. The officers were armed with a SIG-Sauer P226 that was rigged with force sensors on the trigger and grip. All
the officers were instructed that if they drew the gun during the exercise, they were to keep their finger off the trigger unless they had made the decision to
shoot, per their training and department regs.

As the role-play evolved, 34 of the 46 officers drew the gun and one officer actually fired, intentionally. Of the 33 others who drew, all insisted that they had followed
instructions to keep their finger outside the trigger guard, because they'd not made a decision to shoot.

The sensors told a different tale.

Seven of the 33--more than 20 per cent--had in fact touched the trigger hard enough to activate the sensor. Even the officer who eventually fired his
weapon "not only touched the trigger twice before actually firing and once again afterwards, but also had his finger on it long before actually firing," Heim
notes. Yet he too maintained he'd kept his finger well clear of the trigger until the very split-second before he fired
Click to expand...
https://www.policeone.com/police-pro...al-discharges/

here's another, but you have to download the PDF: http://www.shastadefense.com/1911streetsafe.pdf

That indicate that regardless of training and having "keep your finger off the trigger" ingrained, it may still be a subconscious response due to stress. In this article the results were 632 out of 674 (94%) officers tested during FATs training periodically placed their fingers inside the trigger guard, while having no intention of shooting.

I'm a died in the wool striker fired guy, was a big 1911 guy (cocked & locked) before moving to polymer due to weight/capacity. I like a striker trigger that has some pre-travel for this reason. I’ve also been working with the HK LEM, which just might be “THE” option for someone concerned with this because the trigger does have some take-up before the break that’s hard to ignore, but also provides for a good trigger accuracy wise. I do prefer the LEM to a straight DA/SA or normal DAO trigger. Also being a hammer fired gun, you can ride your thumb on the “bobbed” hammer while holstering, which for some is another concern for striker fired pistols.

Although most SA pistols; 1911s for example have a safety, since I was taught to swipe it off as part of my draw stroke (2nd Step of 4 count) I can see how someone would be concerned with a SA pistol also.

Chuck
 
#16 · (Edited)
I carried a Colt Series 70 1911 cocked & locked at 12 o'clock for years and still have the family jewels. IMHO that may be the safest semi auto pistol ever designed, considering the grip safety and hammer/slide lock safety require a determined engaged effort to fire the gun. And one still has to pull the trigger for it to go bang. Compared to a 92F which only requires an external safety, or a 226 which only requires a trigger pull, or a striker fired weapon, seems like the multi safety mechanisms on a 1911 design make it a very safe gun.
 
L
#20 ·
In my opinion it depends on timing. If it's holstered it's hard to argue over the cocked and locked safety of a 1911 vs striker fired or even SA/DA. Things change whe the gun is brought out to play. My training is to take safeties off when drawn. That leaves the trigger as the last "safety" in a high pressure situation. The length of a DA or even a striker fired trigger IMO makes it safer than a SA in that moment. No matter the training or how seasoned one is.....the motion involved to make the gun go bang takes a more deliberate stroke. Thus.....it has to be considered safer. Whether that is a big deal or not is up for a person to person decision.
 
#21 ·
In my opinion, cocked and locked is just as safe. Make sure to use a proper fitted holster to minimize the chance of inadvertently moving the safety lever though.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#23 ·
i too regularly carry a SIG 938 and find cocked and locked to work just fine and is as safe or safer that the striker fired XD Mod 2 i also like a lot. And as many have said, keep finger off trigger, get a good holster, and practice with whatever you carry. Do this and you will never have a problem.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#24 ·
DA really any safer than carrying cocked and locked?

Well, no setup is fool proof. Which one is "more fool proof"?

That depends on the fool.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#32 ·
I think everybody's thinking more in line of "mechanical safety" rather than the period of time or phase when you're deciding to actually shoot or not, and I believe that this is where the DA/SA or DA only trigger has an edge in "safety". During this phase, the safety IF there is one is disengaged, and all that's required to fire the pistol is to pull the trigger.

Most folks will fall back on Rule 3 "keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot (or sights are on the target)". Everybody trains that way, it's ingrained in every defensive shooting class I've ever taken and reinforced during movement in IDPA matches. But studies have shown that under stress, some folks still unconsciously touch their triggers (in one study 94%). I think this article by the late Todd Green explains it best, it's about the HK LEM, but really goes into some of the advantages of the DA/SA over SA or stryker fired triggers:

pistol-training.com » Blog Archive » Why I Like the LEM

This is the problem. Even the biggest advocates of “always keeping a finger off a trigger until a decision to shoot has been made” are caught regularly sub-consciously “touching” the trigger. We see this all the time in training, at matches, and it occurs all the time on the street. It is often a result of dealing with fear. Most people are not very experienced with dealing with extreme fear, and extreme stress (and it is not like a shooting match, it is like seeing a Tractor Trailer rig coming at you in your lane). Touching the trigger makes people feel better. Kind of like a child with their security blanket (we call this the “woobie” as a reference to this). This is a problem that requires significant training to overcome. Training that is often skimped on, due to the idea of (again) a mechanical solution to a software problem. It is hard to teach people to shoot at a high level and requires on-going dedicated training and resources…so we will give them a gun that is really easy to shoot. Unfortunately, often times they are too easy to shoot for many end users.
Click to expand...
What he has to say about SAs:

S/A “cocked and locked” pistols
These things are simply great to shoot with, as there is not a ton to go wrong on the trigger press. Not a lot of take-up, and not a lot of movement on the reset of the trigger mechanism. It is a very consistent trigger as well, which helps. The negative…you have to be very disciplined on the safety operation, both pre and post shooting. A failure to properly use the well placed mechanical safety both pre and post shooting can lead to disasters on both ends. I am pretty simple on these guns. They are for dedicated shooters when carried condition 1. The un-trained and un-practiced and non-dedicated have several opportunities to have a disaster-failure to remove the safety before the event, getting on a trigger with very little take up too early or when not intended, and a failure to mechanically safe the gun when it is coming off the threat, and a failure to safe the gun prior to holstering. That is a ton of places for something to go wrong. If you have a person who multi-tasks well, handles stress well, and is a disciplined person on their training and manipulations, they can do exceptional work with these guns. Duffers can get themselves into a ton of problems in a lot of places.
Click to expand...

Here's another decent article in favor of the DA/SA auto that goes into the safety aspect after the pistol is drawn:

http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/why-switched-double-action/

What that means is that if you mess up and get on the trigger too early – which happens a lot to people under stress – or if you think you need to shoot someone and then realize you don’t, the length of travel of the double action trigger gives you an extra split second to correct your course of action before you put a bullet somewhere it doesn’t belong.
Click to expand...
So I agree that mechanically the SA C&L and DA are equally safe, you could even argue that the SA with the safety on is safer. It's the "deciding whether or not to shoot phase" is where I think the DA has an advantage.

Chuck
 
Defensive Carry
posts
5.6M
members
124K
Since
2004
A forum community dedicated to defensive firearm owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about everyday carry, optics, holsters, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
Defensive Carry Guns Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions General Firearm Discussion New Member Introductions The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion