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Got this off of a Front Sight email.

Virginia requires "good and sufficient reason" to carry in church. This ought to qualify.

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February 14, 2010 - Richmond, California - Three hooded men
walk into Gethsemane Church of God in Christ and opened
fire and then fled the scene, as the singing of the choir
was replaced by frightened screams. The two victims, a 14-
year-old boy and a 19-year-old man, were hospitalized.

March 8, 2009 - Maryville, Illinois - Suspect Terry Joe
Sedlacek, 27, of Troy, walks into the First Baptist Church,
and shoots pastor Fred Winters dead, point blank. Several
church members are injured by a knife in the struggle to
capture after the attack, The suspect also had stabbed
himself, but survived, when his gun jams.

July 27, 2008 - Knoxville, Tennessee - A gunman opens fire
in a church during a youth performance, killing two people
and injuring seven.

Dec. 9, 2007 - Colorado - Three people are killed and five
wounded in two shooting rampages, one at a missionary
school in suburban Denver and one at a church in Colorado
Springs. The gunman in the second incident is killed by a
guard.

May 20, 2007 - Moscow, Idaho - A standoff between police
and a suspect in the shootings of three people in a
Presbyterian Church ended with three dead, including one
police officer.

Aug. 12, 2007 - Neosho, Missouri - First Congregational
Church - 3 killed - Eiken Elam Saimon shot and killed the
pastor and two deacons and wounded five others.

May 21, 2006 - Baton Rouge, Louisiana - The Ministry of
Jesus Christ Church - 4 killed - The four at the church who
were shot were members of Erica Bell's family; she was
abducted and murdered elsewhere; Bell's mother, church
pastor Claudia Brown, was seriously wounded - Anthony Bell,
25, was the shooter.

Feb. 26, 2006 - Detroit, Michigan - Zion Hope Missionary
Baptist Church - 2 killed + shooter - Kevin L. Collins, who
reportedly went to the church looking for his girlfriend,
later killed himself.

April 9, 2005 - College Park, Georgia - A 27-year-old
airman died after being shot at a church, where he had once
worked as a security guard.

March 12, 2005 - Brookfield, Wisconsin - Living Church of
God - 7 killed + shooter - Terry Ratzmann opened fire on
the congregation, killing seven and wounding four before
taking his own life.

July 30, 2005 - College Park, Georgia - World Changers
Church International - shooter killed - Air Force Staff
Sgt. John Givens was shot five times by a police officer
after charging the officer, following violent behavior.

Dec. 17, 2004, Garden Grove, Calif.: A veteran musician at
the Crystal Cathedral shoots himself to death after a nine
-hour standoff.

Oct. 5, 2003 - Atlanta, Georgia - Turner Monumental AME
Church - 2 killed + shooter - Shelia Wilson walked into the
church while preparations are being made for service and
shot the pastor, her mother and then herself.

June 10, 2002 - Conception, Missouri - Benedictine
monastery - 2 killed + shooter - Lloyd Robert Jeffress shot
four monks in the monastery killing two and wounding two,
before killing himself.

March 12, 2002 - Lynbrook, New York - Our Lady of Peace
Catholic Church - 2 killed - Peter Troy, a former mental
patient, opens fire during Mass, killing the priest and a
parishioner. He later receives a life sentence.

May 18, 2001 - Hopkinsville, Kentucky - Greater Oak
Missionary Baptist Church - 2 killed - Frederick Radford
stood up in the middle of a revival service and began
shooting at his estranged wife, Nicole Radford, killing her
and a woman trying to help her.

Sept. 15, 1999 - Fort Worth, Texas - Wedgewood Baptist
Church - 7 killed + shooter - Larry Gene Ashbrook shot dead
seven people and injured a further seven at a concert by
Christian rock group Forty Days in Fort Worth, Texas before
killing himself.

April 15, 1999 - Salt Lake City, Utah - LDS Church Family
History Library - 2 killed + shooter - Sergei Babarin, 70,
with a history of mental illness, entered the library,
killed two people and wounded four others before he was
gunned down by police.
 

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The list omits George Tiller (the partial-birth abortionist) who was killed in a (Lutheran?) church last year.

Also, in the 2007 Colorado incident, I belive it is wrong that "the gunman in the second incident is killed by a guard." I believe it was just a female parishoner who was CCW'ing at the time. Possibly with pastor's permission, but she was not paid security.

I also think there was another shooting in recent years where the pastor was up at the pulpit and the gunman entered and started shooting at the pastor from the back of the church. The first shot went through the Bible he was holding, sending paper confetti into the air. At first the congregation thought it was some type of staged stunt. That pastor did die after more shots were fired. I don't remember when & where but I don't believe it is on this list.

I live in Virginia and often wonder about these types of shootings and whether they would hold up in court as "good and sufficient reason" to CCW in church. I wouldn't count on it. But if you are, for example, a Catholic who is at adoration at 2am all alone (and the BG's know it), I think that would definitely be good and sufficient reason.

There is a bill in the VA State Legislature to allow CCW in Church with the pastor's permission. It's a move in the right direction.
 

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There is a bill in the VA State Legislature to allow CCW in Church with the pastor's permission. It's a move in the right direction.
I don't think it is at all-in fact, its just the opposite IMO: I'd much prefer to take my chances with the ambigious "good and sufficient reason" that it is now with a jury than it migrate to be absolute black and white unlawful without a pastor's permission (if it's legal with permission, therefore it must be then illegal without).

C-
 

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Also, in the 2007 Colorado incident, I belive it is wrong that "the gunman in the second incident is killed by a guard." I believe it was just a female parishoner who was CCW'ing at the time. Possibly with pastor's permission, but she was not paid security.
Correct. Jeanne Assam was a volunteer, member of the church, former LEO.
I also think there was another shooting in recent years where the pastor was up at the pulpit and the gunman entered and started shooting at the pastor from the back of the church. The first shot went through the Bible he was holding, sending paper confetti into the air. At first the congregation thought it was some type of staged stunt. That pastor did die after more shots were fired. I don't remember when & where but I don't believe it is on this list.
It is the one from Maryville, IL. Pastor Fred Winters.
 

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If we were to consider the thousands of churches that meet at least once weekly and over a period of 11 years, there is little liklihood that any particular church would experience such violence.

Certainly there is nothing wrong with preparedness, but whether or not a particular state or county would consider those sufficient reason to carry I don't know.

If we add a couple to make 20 it figures out to be 1.8 shootings per year in the entire nation with thousands of meetings per year. A very low probability.

Regards,
Jerry
 

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I agree the probability is low. I wonder how many women gave birth in churches over the time same period. I would guess a similar low number. Puts it in perspective.

I am all for carrying to be legal in churches, or most anywhere for that matter. It has been up here since forever and there is no horrific "blood on the pews"
 

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A possibility is a possibility. I don't appreciate legislators telling me where I have to gamble with my family's life. In 40 years of living I have never needed a firearm (not counting the military). That's zero instances over 40 years. Should I stop carrying?

Bear in mind the list does not include armed robbery, rape, mugging, or other attempted violent crimes on church property; only shootings. Considering that you can't tell how your own personal brush with violence is going to end until it's all over, I'll continue to carry at church.
 

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The list isn't comprehensive, by a long shot. There are plenty of missing examples of church shootings, though generally only the bloodiest and deadliest get the headlines.

Here are a few more to add to the list.

2010, Jan 23 -- Woman killed at church parking lot, at St. Dominic Church in Youngstown, Ohio.

2009, Dec 11 -- Man killed at funeral services being held at the New Hope Missionary Baptist Church in Portland, Oregon.

2008, Nov 23 -- Multiple people killed when a husband crossed the country to kill his wife, at the St. Thomas Syrian Orthodox Knanaya Church, in Clifton, NJ.

2008, Mar 21 -- Police investigators search for a suspect and motive in a shooting that left two people wounded outside a Suitland, Maryland church where the victims had been attending Bible study.

2007, Nov 4 -- Gunfire erupts at Dorchester's Holy Tabernacle Church in Boston, injuring one.

2007, Mar 11 -- Woman shot and killed by estranged husband while walking into church, at Acts Full Gospel Church in Oakland, CA.

2006, Oct 2 -- Although not at a church building, the attack in Lancaster County, Pa., by a gunman who killed five girls and then himself at an Amish school targeted a religious site.

2000, Nov 1 -- The wife of a minister at the Eagle Heights Baptist Church & Christian School, in Kansas City, MO, decided to kill her daughter (for "rebelliousness") and then herself.

1999, Jul 4 -- One person killed in a shooting at the Koren United Methodist Church in Bloomington, IN.

1999, Mar 11 -- Three killed and four injured as a family dispute erupts at the New St. John Fellowship Baptist Church in Gonzales, LA.

... and on, and on.

If we go beyond 11yrs, we'll find thousands, I'm sure, just in the USA.

1980, Jun 22 -- At the Wedgwood Baptist Church in Fort Worth, TX, five were killed when a psychopath went off his rocker. A prelude to events in 1999 that would nearly mirror these.



I wouldn't be surprised if the tally were to exceed 100 incidents over the past 11yrs, if a truly comprehensive list were created.
 

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I don't think it is at all-in fact, its just the opposite IMO: I'd much prefer to take my chances with the ambigious "good and sufficient reason" that it is now with a jury than it migrate to be absolute black and white unlawful without a pastor's permission (if it's legal with permission, therefore it must be then illegal without).

C-
Good point.
 

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All the more reason to be prepared and vigilant. Church, as Jerry says, is a low-probability place to be attacked. Nevertheless it is not a completely safe area either, and therefore we need to continue to be vigilant even when worshipping.
 

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We should be very careful how we use probability to justify our opinions on this issue. As has been pointed out, these types of shootings are exceedingly rare. Look at it from the other side. We know that accidental shooting deaths, or deaths by CCWs are exceedingly rare, but what do they do? They still highlight these deaths to justify whatever gun control flavor of the month they are pushing.

The only way these shootings should be used by us is to answer the contention that they never happen. What we should really be talking about is the legal "good and sufficient" requirement. If we were to follow this standard, the argument can be made that we don't need to carry anywhere. But of course, we don't carry for what we expect to happen.

The law should be simple. Put churches in the same category as any other privately owned establishment. If the church wishes to bar carry, they should be able to do so with clear signage. However, there is no rational argument to statutorily ban carry in church, and no one should have to provide "good and sufficient" reason to carry anywhere.
 

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[We should be very careful how we use probability to justify our opinions on this issue.]

I would agree in general. However, the state may not find that the statistics justify a change in the law, and especially if some are opposed to CCW.
I do carry in church.

Another, off topic thought, is that not being able to carry in a church would not impact my attending a particular church.

Regards,
Jerry
 

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Church, as Jerry says, is a low-probability place to be attacked.
As we should all realize, "church" (or any other activity) consists of three things:
  • Going to;
  • Being there; and
  • Coming from
which makes it more likely than most folks initially consider. Beyond which a place of worship is a place where most folks put their guard down, security-wise. As well, it's a place well-known to be (historically, at least) unarmed as a group. Lastly, it is an enclosed space with limited exits. Compared to many other venues, it has a lot of attractive benefits that could aid in a violent attack.

Sitting in a pew is fairly safe so far as it goes, on a church day. But then, being a sitting at a table as a student at a school is fairly safe as well. Yet, both activities have seen scores upon scores of attacks over the years. As far as potential for a body count goes, they're target-rich environments with a high probability of easy entry and escape. That point, alone, can make it more attractive than many others, from the criminals' point of view.

Speaking strictly of probabilities, I'm highly unlikely to even see a criminal today, let alone be criminalized by one. But that'll be meaningless on the day something happens. It'll sting particularly badly if in fact I end up voluntarily disarming myself and causing myself to be practically incapable of surviving a violent attack because of it. Pass, when training and preparation and carrying has become a normal, daily part of being awake, and when it's so easy to simply carry and maintain some reasonable ability of surviving the event should it occur.

We carry because we cannot know when or where a criminal is to strike next. We don't do it out of fear, or arrogance, or out of a desire to control what cannot be controlled. We do it because we'd feel foolish and irreverent of the gift of life bestowed upon us and our families. We do it because doing zero in preparation for security of our families would be intolerable. We do it because we've trained to be able to respond in such situations. We do it because it's little more effort than putting on socks and, therefore, there really isn't a reason not to do so.
 

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I would agree in general. However, the state may not find that the statistics justify a change in the law, and especially if some are opposed to CCW.
Of course, but if we use isolated incidents to justify our beliefs, they get to do it too. So we can talk about how CCWs are statistically less likely than non to commit crime. And then they will bring up the very small number of crimes committed by CCWs. Neither argument makes much sense in the grand scheme of things; the former proves that crimes can occur at churches, nothing more. The latter proves that CCWs can commit crimes, nothing more. When we use anecdotal evidence, we open ourselves up to having it thrown back in our faces.

Again, forget the individual incidents, the real issue is that idiotic requirement. By that standard, I'd have no reason to wear a seat belt or have fire extinguishers in my home because after all, the chances of a car crash or house fire are very low.
 

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Of course, but if we use isolated incidents to justify our beliefs, they get to do it too. So we can talk about how CCWs are statistically less likely than non to commit crime. And then they will bring up the very small number of crimes committed by CCWs. Neither argument makes much sense in the grand scheme of things; the former proves that crimes can occur at churches, nothing more. The latter proves that CCWs can commit crimes, nothing more. When we use anecdotal evidence, we open ourselves up to having it thrown back in our faces.

Again, forget the individual incidents, the real issue is that idiotic requirement. By that standard, I'd have no reason to wear a seat belt or have fire extinguishers in my home because after all, the chances of a car crash or house fire are very low.
While the arguments may not make sense, it is the way many lawmakers think. They can argue the miniscule probability of a shooting occurring in a church, and make it a small enough problem so that it is not worth spending time over.

Without a lot of pressure the neutral and anti gunners will spend their time on more urgent issues.

Churches are in fact safe places. I suspect more home invasions have occurred in nice neighborhoods than church shootings. If that is so, then you are safer in church than at home.
Sometimes our arguments are not as convincing as we would like to think.

Regards,
Jerry
 

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While the arguments may not make sense, it is the way many lawmakers think. They can argue the miniscule probability of a shooting occurring in a church, and make it a small enough problem so that it is not worth spending time over.

Without a lot of pressure the neutral and anti gunners will spend their time on more urgent issues.

Churches are in fact safe places. I suspect more home invasions have occurred in nice neighborhoods than church shootings. If that is so, then you are safer in church than at home.
Sometimes our arguments are not as convincing as we would like to think.

Regards,
Jerry
I carry at home, I carry at church, I carry everywhere it is legal.

That is why I got my CHL and spent the coins for CHL, firearms, holsters etc.

Thanksgiving 2009 we had a church armed robbery not 10 miles from our church.

3 mask men entered small church with shotgun and 2 pistols and made folks lay on floor as they searched them and took their wallets and purses.

One robber with pistol stuck muzzle of pistol into the pastor temple eye socket area and twisted the muzzle to up the fear level.

After getting their jollies and stolen goods from victims they left, and to my knowledge have not been cough yet.

Yes I carry at church!!!!!!
 

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The church shootings in this thread covers events in 20 states, so the possibilities are everywhere.:yup:
We here in FL are fortunate that church carry is legal...the wife and I and Mr. Glock attend regularly.:yup:
 
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