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There are literally hundreds if not thousands of pages on MIM quality vs tool steel - which I won’t summarize here. Suffice it to say MIM was adopted by manufacturers as a cost saving move not to improve quality. There is well made MIM and poor MIM, Springfield uses both and which you get depends on your luck.


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The use of MIMS parts in low impact areas of a firearm are not an issue.

Yes, all manufacturing companies look to cut costs. Regardless of popular belief, the hand fitting of a gun, while definitely more expensive, does not mean better quality.
Modern steel processes and CNC machinery make parts much more consistent and precise across the spectrum at a lower cost than hand-fitting could ever do at the rate that they need to turn them out for a price the buying public can reasonably afford.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
Nope, never shot one. All the advice/recommendations is/are great, even the part about renting. However, I'm not aware of any ranges within a reasonable driving distance to me that might even have a range officer, much less rental guns. There is a indoor range about an hour and a half south of me. I'll check.

Most guns I have gotten in the past I never shot first. I fondle them at gun shows when possible, but never shot them first.

sgb, Those fit the bill! I'm not thrilled with the big RO Elite on the slide, but otherwise that's the look.

I'll shop for a while, do some more research, and ask the FFL holder I get my guns through if he might have one of his own stashed away I could look at. He closed his store front so he may not even own one.

Nevertheless, from the answers here, it seems the Remington has seen a loyal following. And the price isn't bad either.

Chevy/GMC for fuel economy
Ford for interior comfort and ease of use
Dodge for pure power and hauling ability
All the others, I'm not familiar with
 

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Most parts on a handgun would see no benefit from tool-steel properties. If you know of particular issues with the brands people have suggested, that would be helpful.
Personally & I know others who’ve had issues with Springfield sears & extractors, as well as issues with their breach face. If you search the 1911 forums you’ll note an increase in issues with Springfield guns going back for repairs.

They are generally good as base guns for a build but that isn’t what the OP asked about.

As for tool steel not offering a benefit I’d disagree but rather than debate it I’d just refer you to the hundreds of pages on the subject- clearly many folks agree with each of us.


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Most parts on a handgun would see no benefit from tool-steel properties. If you know of particular issues with the brands people have suggested, that would be helpful.
They have gotten over the hump now, but Kimber had some real bad luck under Cohen's watch.

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Discussion Starter #25
And I thought Kimber was a top-o-the-line firearm....my belief system has been shattered! Oh WOE is me!

The reason I want it in 9mm is because I have more than my lifetime worth of ammo already stocked and plenty much more empty brass waiting in the wings. That's not saying much, I shoot less than 2000 rounds a year I'd guess. And that number is getting less each year.
 

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And I thought Kimber was a top-o-the-line firearm....my belief system has been shattered! Oh WOE is me!

The reason I want it in 9mm is because I have more than my lifetime worth of ammo already stocked and plenty much more empty brass waiting in the wings. That's not saying much, I shoot less than 2000 rounds a year I'd guess. And that number is getting less each year.
No, that's not what I said, I said they were over the hump. Ron Cohen hasn't been running Kimber into the ground for many years now. :wink:
 

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There are literally hundreds if not thousands of pages on MIM quality vs tool steel - which I won’t summarize here. Suffice it to say MIM was adopted by manufacturers as a cost saving move not to improve quality. There is well made MIM and poor MIM, Springfield uses both and which you get depends on your luck.


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And most of those posts are made by people who are regurgitating what someone else who didn’t know what they were talking about posted.

They have gotten over the hump now, but Kimber had some real bad luck under Cohen's watch.

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I’m not going to pretend that Cohen doesn’t have a habit or ruining companies, but things break. It’s not just kimber. People just choose to ignore it when it happens to other manufacturers. I think it’s interesting that the only thing they would have to do to give the illusion that there is a change in QC would be to reduce their production numbers to be on par with other manufacturers. If kimber sells 1000 guns and 10 of them come back, there is a 1% rate of guns being returned to fix, if another manufacturer sells 500 guns and there are 5 guns that come back, there is a 1% rate of guns being returned, but people will lose their mind over twice as many guns being returned for issues.

ETA: I didn’t notice that the bottom picture was a sig at first. So I see what you did there, but generally speaking I think my above statement is fairly accurate.

And I thought Kimber was a top-o-the-line firearm....my belief system has been shattered! Oh WOE is me!

The reason I want it in 9mm is because I have more than my lifetime worth of ammo already stocked and plenty much more empty brass waiting in the wings. That's not saying much, I shoot less than 2000 rounds a year I'd guess. And that number is getting less each year.
Kimber makes a decent gun. Some of their higher priced guns I think there are better options for the money, but I’ve owned a couple, and if I were buying another 1911 under $1000, it would most likely be another kimber. Just got to see what you like though.
 

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No, that's not what I said, I said they were over the hump. Ron Cohen hasn't been running Kimber into the ground for many years now. :wink:
Didn't even realize - is that the same Cohen who's trying to run Sig into the ground currently? I kinda wish the Germans had kept him in prison...

Anyway, back on topic: I'd strongly suggest browsing used firearms. I probably wouldn't have a 1911 if I hadn't run across a Ruger SR1911 in great shape for $450. All I had to do to it was tighten the grip screws.
 

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And most of those posts are made by people who are regurgitating what someone else who didn’t know what they were talking about posted.



I’m not going to pretend that Cohen doesn’t have a habit or ruining companies, but things break. It’s not just kimber. People just choose to ignore it when it happens to other manufacturers. I think it’s interesting that the only thing they would have to do to give the illusion that there is a change in QC would be to reduce their production numbers to be on par with other manufacturers. If kimber sells 1000 guns and 10 of them come back, there is a 1% rate of guns being returned to fix, if another manufacturer sells 500 guns and there are 5 guns that come back, there is a 1% rate of guns being returned, but people will lose their mind over twice as many guns being returned for issues.

ETA: I didn’t notice that the bottom picture was a sig at first. So I see what you did there, but generally speaking I think my above statement is fairly accurate.



Kimber makes a decent gun. Some of their higher priced guns I think there are better options for the money, but I’ve owned a couple, and if I were buying another 1911 under $1000, it would most likely be another kimber. Just got to see what you like though.
Some folks regurgitate & some folks have both knowledge and experience.

If you’re buying a range toy to shoot a couple thousand rounds a year MIM will likely last you & do you fine. If you’re shooting 40,000 plus rounds a year you may well form a different opinion & have different experiences. If you shoot it regularly because you want to train with your carry gun, implying you’re carrying this gun & your life may depend on it well then, if you want to save a few dollars for that manufacturer go right ahead.


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From what I've seen, 1911's run best chambered in 45. The 9mm's can be iffy. Naturally, the more you spend, the better chance you have of getting one that runs.

My WC CQB's in 45 have been splendid but they are heavy and give up a lot in capacity to a poly double stack 9. And believe it or not, it is possible to shoot striker fired 9's very well.
 

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Some folks regurgitate & some folks have both knowledge and experience.

If you’re buying a range toy to shoot a couple thousand rounds a year MIM will likely last you & do you fine. If you’re shooting 40,000 plus rounds a year you may well form a different opinion & have different experiences. If you shoot it regularly because you want to train with your carry gun, implying you’re carrying this gun & your life may depend on it well then, if you want to save a few dollars for that manufacturer go right ahead.


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Lol. See this is what I’m talking about. You say “for a range toy”, And you probably have no idea how many guns use MIM parts.
 

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Of the dozen + 1911s I've had, I've had the most trouble with Kimber with a total of four guns being problematic and requiring everything short of exorcism.

Never again.

The only sub $2k guns I'd be looking at, especially in 9mm would be Dan Wesson and STI.

And even then I'd toss the mags and buy all Wilsons.



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There are literally hundreds if not thousands of pages on MIM quality vs tool steel - which I won’t summarize here. Suffice it to say MIM was adopted by manufacturers as a cost saving move not to improve quality. There is well made MIM and poor MIM, Springfield uses both and which you get depends on your luck.
Hmmm...

MIM parts are used in hot section parts in gas turbine engines, so I guess it must not be very good.

Just like the "cast vs forged" debate. If cast parts were so routinely low strength or quality, someone forgot to tell Ruger (one of the top makers of investment cast parts in the country) and Fabrique Nationale, who fixed the slide cracking problem on the .40 Hi Power by going from forged to - merde alors! - cast slides.

Funny how the internet never gets lit up when a tool steel extractor or firing pin breaks, but lord a'mighty, if the part happens to be made with the MIM process, it's the devil's spawn.

The truth is in bold face. Same holds true for tool steel, or parts made of any material by any process. Design, material and fabrication process need to be appropriate to the task. FWIW, I've put 3 Springfield 1911s through tens of thousands of rounds and the only internal parts that ever broke were extractors (which I consider a normal replacement part).
 

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It’s best not to get to caught up in MIM talk. We trust our lives to it all the time.

All manufacturers have issues from time to time. Not all handle it the same way.
Other issues are operator induced, but the gun gets blamed.

I’ve had two Sig 1911 “Style” pistols. One was flawless...sold it, idiot me.
The other couldn’t get through two mags without issue. Yet anyone else that shot it found it to function perfectly. Drove me nuts. I couldn’t blame the gun.

Turns out, I was limp wristing it. All steel like my other one, but it didn’t like me. But I can shoot my sons Colt Defender that weighs a lot less, and never have an issue. I can’t limp wrist that Defender even purposely!

If my budget was $1,200, I would probably go with a Wesson in 38 super.
 

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For 1911s, I like owning Colts. No good reason other than I just like 'em. I've had no experience owning and wringing out other brands of 1911-guns. I've shot lots of other brands 1911s belonging to other folks and my finger is not discerning enough to truly tell the difference blindfolded.

I have shot enough through a couple of late model Colt guns to say that they have been well-mannered and nothing has broken to this point. I don't like the notion of MIM parts but gasmitty and others here on the Forum have schooled me so that I've come to believe MIM doesn't always matter. I've not changed out any "inferior" MIM or plastic triggers on the Colts and they haven't yet had a melt down. Of course it could be because I've been lazy about parts swapping. I've not been hard on them but have shot them a goodly amount.

A 1911 is a very enjoyable gun to own and shoot ... a lot! Messing with them is fraught with more difficulties than leaving them be, unless messing with them is intended to become one's hobby. I have observed perfectly good and reliable 1911s reduced to malfunctioning rubbish by nitwits. This was early in a shooting career and I vowed to avoid doing the same. Leaving 'em alone and just shooting 'em has worked out alright for me.
 

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"A 1911 is a very enjoyable gun to own and shoot ... a lot! Messing with them is fraught with more difficulties than leaving them be, unless messing with them is intended to become one's hobby. I have observed perfectly good and reliable 1911s reduced to malfunctioning rubbish by nitwits. This was early in a shooting career and I vowed to avoid doing the same. Leaving 'em alone and just shooting 'em has worked out alright for me." -- @bmcgilvray

I'm not a born "messer" or fiddler or tinkerer. I plan on learning to field strip, clean, etc. as one does with any pistol, but that's about it. I'll take my new 1911 to my local gunsmith when it needs further attention. That's one of the main reasons I haven't gotten involved with 1911s -- seen and read about too many people "messing" with 'em and then not having a reliable weapon. I already have friends telling me to take a triangle file to the slide stop of my Commander, and I haven't even received it yet! :rolleyes:
 
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