[acparmed]

I found this very interesting article and tho it's geared towards LEO's I feel it's relevant to all of us as well.

http://www.borelliconsulting.com/articles/21feet.htm

 

[P95Carry]

That Bob is a sobering report tho - for many of us not too great a surprise - Tueller drill and all that.

As ever I think if it comes to defence of self and legal sequele - it will be and is down to ''stopping the threat'' - I would certainly want jurors to understand this when they might be thinking - knife vs gun = mismatch!!!

I have seen even real big guys - say 350 plus - be able to move incredibly fast over short distances - never under estimate an opponent!!

 

[Bruces45]

I was a good read.

 

[ExSoldier]

IIRC, there is a certified Police Training video available called Surviving Edged Weapons and being an official training tool used by some northern police departments it should be able to be entered into evidence in a court trial. It's about an hour long and I used to have my CCW students view it and then sign a document they HAD seen it and thus could link the training to any edged weapon situation. One of my instructor "buddies" "borrowed" the video and never returned it. I don't loan stuff to buddies anymore -- especially other instructors!

 

[Bumper]

Interesting article and an interesting website.

It sure makes you reconsider distances of threats and the actions you should be taking. I would hope this thought would eventually get accepted in court cases and lengthen the standard for responses....

 

[rocky]

21 ft. rule is what we were taught during the PD academy. Shuffling sideways while firing may help, but COM hits are the best way to stop the threat. Also dropping to 1 side as the subject gets near may help avoid too much injury, but ya better know how to battle on the ground.

 

[OD*]

Interesting read, thank you.

 

[BlueLion]

Good read acp, I also read 10 seconds at the bottom. Thanks...

 

[older gunner]

I was taught 21 ft. when I took my CCW course. Thanks for the post. Makes you think and may help in a tough situation to know you need an even better edge.

 

[CombatEffective]

We do our best to break the myth of the 21 foot rule in our training.

 

[Tangle]

After reading that, it makes me appreciate Gunsite's approach to problems such as this. Essentially, as the BG gets nearly within striking distance, you quickly move 45° off the line of attack, and pivot. We drilled with this technique both in the handgun classes and edged weapons classes. It puts considerable distance between you and the BG and basically positions you to his side or back.

The sudden move forces the BG to now react to you. The ole action beats reaction. If the BG is traveling fast enough to reach you in 1.5 seconds, he cannot adjust quickly enough to contact you and may very well fall, trying to.

 

[rstickle]

you quickly move 45° off the line of attack, and pivot. We drilled with this technique both in the handgun classes and edged weapons classes. It puts considerable distance between you and the BG and basically positions you to his side or back.

The sad part is I can almost hear the lawyer now, "and then you shot him in the back (side)?"

 

[Scott]

We do our best to break the myth of the 21 foot rule in our training.

What is the 21 foot myth? I'm not sure I've heard it or maybe I have and can't recall it. I do have CRS sometimes. :biggrin:

-Scott-

 

[CombatEffective]

What is the 21 foot myth? I'm not sure I've heard it or maybe I have and can't recall it. I do have CRS sometimes. :biggrin:

-Scott-

Unforutnately, when drill comes out like the Tueller Drill it often gets malformed into something like the "21 foot rule", which I have actually heard people state like it is codifed into law. People then misunderstand it even more, and I've even heard people express it as a legal principle that you can't shoot an attacker armed with an edged weapon unless they are within 21 feet of you.

We try to debunk all of the above.

 

[Scott]

Unforutnately, when drill comes out like the Tueller Drill it often gets malformed into something like the "21 foot rule", which I have actually heard people state like it is codifed into law. People then misunderstand it even more, and I've even heard people express it as a legal principle that you can't shoot an attacker armed with an edged weapon unless they are within 21 feet of you.

We try to debunk all of the above.

Roger that. I guess I hadn't heard that one.

-Scott-

 

[Tangle]

The sad part is I can almost hear the lawyer now, "and then you shot him in the back (side)?"

I know what you mean. But you only have to shoot him as you perceive the need. The point of the step and pivot is to gain time and distance and from what I have seen, even if he recovers rapidly, you are at some distance from him, he's got to change directions, and this time, your recognition, draw and fire time are non factors because you've already responded, and your gun out, if he turns to charge again, you could put five rounds in him by the time he gets back up to speed.

 

[Rob72]

Interesting observation from a LEO:

In the verbal stage, addressing the potential BG, and instructing them along the lines of, "Hey, buddy, wait right there.", and holding up the "Stop" hand, and assessing your situation. If the BG does not appropriately respond, be more "forceful" in your address, and begin the arc. In otherwords, begin stepping off-line and lateral, as the exchange continues. This allows you to choose ground, require the BG to move, and allows you to scan the surroundings(more BG's, maybe?). His observation (and mine, when I played with it a bit), was that it makes it much harder for the BG to finalize an approach and when he does, you're in a better position to respond.

 

[havegunjoe]

The way I have always taught the 21' rule is simply that distance, or less, is the distance that a self defense shooting typically occurs. Most police shootings are 10' or less. Given that, you won't have much time to draw and shoot, especially if you are caught completely unaware. Situational awareness and avoidance techniques can save your life. Within 21', by the time your brain registers that you are being attacked, it's probably too late unless you have your gun in your hand.

While this is not a "law" as such remember that if you were to shoot an attacker at say 50' you would be hard pressed to convince a court of law that you were in immediate danger and couldn't at least try to run away, which is required in most states.

 

[AZG23]

Given that, you won't have much time to draw and shoot, especially if you are caught completely unaware. Situational awareness and avoidance techniques can save your life. Within 21', by the time your brain registers that you are being attacked, it's probably too late unless you have your gun in your hand.

DING DING DING...we have a winner folks...

Exactly...unless you know its happening you wont have your hand ON your gun...close range hand to hand techniques are needed...avoidance and repositioning training IS needed. Force on Force with airsoft guns can teach/train so much on this and really open your eyes...under 5 feet your gonna have problems accessing the pistol and beeing effective with it. Not that you cant getit out and do a rock type retention fire. It can be done and almost every situation can be different.

You MUST move offline period!!! If you dont move you will be shot/stabbed/beaten/etc. YOu have to disruot the BG's thought loop...(OODA). Its provable with FOF drills.

Start doing what ifs out in public...when you are within arms reach of others...you will see how difficult it can be to survive under that 21 feet...

Be aware....be proactive...be aggressive....

 

[LPguy]

I also read 10 seconds.

Thanks for the post. I actually copied the info onto a microsoft doc in case....God forbid I ever need it to defend my actions.

Mike