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Discussion Starter #1
Ballistics is something I know very little about. Is there a good reason to use one over the other for defensive purposes. Right now I am using standard pressure 124g Federal Hydra shocks as I haven't been able to get a straight answer from Taurus on if the 709 is rated for +p ammo. Is there a reason to go down to 115g or up to 147g?
 

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Some of mine have 'feed' issues with the 147 gr. I don't use it now, so I don't put it in the wrong gun by accident and then have a problem at the wrong moment.

I prefer the 124 gr, but have some 115 gr as well, which both shoot well in all of my guns. Afterall, if it doesn't shoot.... it becomes as good as holding a rock.
 

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I personally prefer the 147's in my 9mm, the 124 as my second choice. I don't use +p because in the end they really don't offer much if any additional penetration advantage. I shoot 115's at the range as they are usually the cheapest.

I'd also recommend switching from the Hydra-Shok to the HST's.

Here's why: LE - Wound Ballistics
Read the range tests posted here.

Here's a great page to check out to learn more about various ammunition ballistics.

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
 

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I prefer the lighter bullets (115 or 124) because they offer higher veolcities which in 9mm produce better expansion.
 

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Simple physics: force=mass_x_acceleration. Assuming each load leaves the barrel at approximately the same speed, the larger bullet will result more force applied to the target. It is not inconceivable that some pistols might have trouble feeding the 147 gr. as there would undoubtedly be a slight size variance between the different gr. ammo.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I personally prefer the 147's in my 9mm, the 124 as my second choice. I don't use +p because in the end they really don't offer much if any additional penetration advantage. I shoot 115's at the range as they are usually the cheapest.

I'd also recommend switching from the Hydra-Shok to the HST's.

Here's why: LE - Wound Ballistics
Read the range tests posted here.

Here's a great page to check out to learn more about various ammunition ballistics.

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
WOW, The expansion on the 147g HST is pretty impressive.
 

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For awhile here it's kinda been use what you can find... I'm a little more old school. I found some Federal 9BPLE 115gr.+P+, FBI loads, not too long ago and stocked up on them. The 9BPLE has been knockin' BG's in the dirt, with great success for quite awhile. My next choice is 124gr.+P's.

Unfortunately, the 147gr. loads can't generate enough velocity out of the small 9mm case to make it a choice, over the 115's and 124's, in my book. YMMV
 

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In a pistol I prefer either the 115 or a 124. Where the 147 really shines is coming out of a carbine.
 

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Simple physics: force=mass_x_acceleration. Assuming each load leaves the barrel at approximately the same speed, the larger bullet will result more force applied to the target.
This isn't a valid assumption. Ballistics in a single caliber, have typically shown the heavier the bullet will have a lower velocity. The only case where this won't be true, is less than full power, reduced recoil, loadings.

If it were true there would be no need to have any loadings, but the heaviest weight bullets in each caliber. It would also make the need for these kinds of discussions unnecessary. How boring would that be... :yup:
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Ok, kind of a change in subject here but I figured I would try instead of making a new thread. Does anyone see a issue with firing a 147g out of a 3 inch barrell?
 

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The main difference between the two is perceived recoil, which is higher with the heavier bullet, and possible feed issues, since more of the bullet extends out of the case. I have shot both extensively in Glock pistols, and prefer the 124 grain variety, but I always will prefer a smaller and faster bullet, i.e., 180 grain in .45, 124 grain in 9mm/357SIG than a bigger and slower one. I have found the 147 grain bullet in 357SIG to be a little unstable and won't use it.
 

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In 4 inch or longer barrels I don't use +P
in 9mm, they get 147gr gold dots, 45 gets 230gr gold dots
in the shorter barrel compacts I do use the +P
 

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I'm surprised by the comments on the 147 gr out of a short barrel. Over on the Kahr forum, there is a lot of praise (and some studies) done on the 147 gr. out of a PM9 and the very positive results. I am currently using the 124 gr. HST +P, but only because I couldn't find the 147 gr.

Frankly, I think any of the 9mm SD ammos on the market will be effective. I certainly never had any doublts when I was carrying standard velocity Hydra-shocks and Winchester Silvertips 20 years ago (and still do for my older weapons). Though recently developed ammo may provide a slight edge (and every little but counts), I would not feel undergunned by any of the old stand-bys. BTW, why is it that no one mentions the ease of follow up shots and double-taps with the standard velocity cartridges (especially in light, short barreled compact pistols)? That tactical advantage may outweigh whatever gain comes with the latest +P+ ammo.
 

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Simple physics: force=mass_x_acceleration. Assuming each load leaves the barrel at approximately the same speed, the larger bullet will result more force applied to the target.
That is the issue ... the heavier bullets are not moving at the same velocity as the lighter bullets ... you need to choose between slower/heavier and faster/lighter. You argument only applies for, e.g., 124gr. +P vs. 124gr. +P+.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
In 4 inch or longer barrels I don't use +P
in 9mm, they get 147gr gold dots, 45 gets 230gr gold dots
in the shorter barrel compacts I do use the +P
I would prefer to use +p but my ccw isnt rated for it :(
 

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I was told that using lighter bullets out of a short barrel helps to compensate for the velocity loss due to the shortened barrel. There is always a minimum velocity required for a given hollowpoint to properly expand. That's why some use the ligher 185 grain .45 ACP defense loads in shortened 1911s (less than or equal to 4 inch barrels). I guess that makes sense...

FWIW, I carry Hornady 115gr Critical Defense in my 4.5'' barreled 9mm. I recently got some Buffalo Fore +P+ 115 grain stuff that I'm eager to try. In my P239 (.357 SIG, 3.6'' barrel) I carry Cor-Bon DPX 125 gr, and recently also got some Buffalo Bore 125 grains to try. The BB ammo appeals to me because they apparantly load to maximum SAAMI specs, and a watered down .357SIG is pretty much a 9mm +P anyway, right?
 

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I prefer the lighter bullets (115 or 124) because they offer higher veolcities which in 9mm produce better expansion.
+1. Same here. It's the GD 124 +p for my nine.
 

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+1. Same here. It's the GD 124 +p for my nine.

Same here, Gold Dot 124+Ps in mine as well.:hand10:

All the research I've done on 115 VS. 124 VS. 147 show that the
115 grain in +P pushes the bullet too fast and it shreds its jacket
causing it to under penetrate ."sometimes":rolleyes:

The 147 grain HP bullets may not open consistently because they
are moving slower."sometimes":rolleyes:

The 124 grain on the other hand seem to work well in + P and
standard loads
Its not that these bullets (115-147) don't work, its that the Gold Dot 124 grain seem to do better in gel and water test.
As they say " your results may vary":22a:
 

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Although I load 124gr XTP and cast bullets for practice and plinking, I've seen some amazing results with 115gr DPX. It will not break up.
 

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Ballistics is something I know very little about. Is there a good reason to use one over the other for defensive purposes. Right now I am using standard pressure 124g Federal Hydra shocks as I haven't been able to get a straight answer from Taurus on if the 709 is rated for +p ammo. Is there a reason to go down to 115g or up to 147g?
I doubt that your Taurus is +P rated. It might be but I doubt it for personal reasons. For me, even if it was, I wouldn't use +P in it anyway. I just don't trust the frame enough for that kind of recoil absorption and battering.

In my S&W I use corbon DPX in 115 gr. Tests have shown that this round penetrates to around 18" from a 4" test barrel. From a 3" barrel it would be less (around 12"). Since you want full depth penetration and the bullet to stop inside the target; you want the bullet to penetrate and stop in about 12". You also want that bullet to be traveling fast enough that at distances < 21 ft it will fully expand but not fragment.

The DPX penetrates to that depth at that distance. It is traveling fast enough to fully expand and is a solid copper bullet that will not fragment. The difference between the energy from the DPX and the heavier 147 gr rounds is not enough to cause me to worry that my target won't stop after receiving a couple of rounds.
 
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