[the-fly]

my 2 cents: use whatever JHP you like. Apartment walls do very little to stop bullets, so the key is to not miss your bad guy. Quality JHP's wont have much zip on them if they exit the bad guy's body, so i wouldnt worry too much unless there's someone right behind them.
That said, my preferred round is Federal HST 147. If you want to cut down on penetration, go with the 124gr stuff.

 

[Euclidean]

Anything you use will be potentially too powerful.

You can of course check this out.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

My personal system is I have drawn a map of the real estate and evaluated for myself where my backstops are. I have two directions I can shoot in, which are of course the two directions someone can enter from.

 

[ExSoldier]

Glaser Silver or MagSafe Super SWAT OR RBCD: http://www.rbcd.net

 

[JustinM]

Maybe I should consider a shotgun then?

would that be less likely to penetrate?

 

[ExSoldier]

Maybe I should consider a shotgun then?

would that be less likely to penetrate?

Depends on the range, choke and type of shot used. A slug or 00 Buckshot is going to go right thru like a hot knife thru butter. I might suggest a 20 or even a 410 with open choke and bird shot. At close ranges inside an apt, bird shot is not going to have the opportunity to disperse so it will likely have a fatal result. It's best if the perp get's the full load so that there will be even less likelihood of overpenetration.:banana:

 

[Euclidean]

ExSoldier I'm going to have to cross paths with you on this one.

Glaser Safety Slugs may have their time and place but I'm convinced that defending my person in the middle of the night isn't one of them. Check out the box O' truth when they shoot the Glaser into the jugs of water... that wouldn't stop somebody not reliably.

As for the small bore shotgun with the birdshot load, I don't buy that either. Those loads are deliberately engineered to NOT inflict trauma so they don't tear your little bitty bird up.

I am convinced that planning your living space around its vulnerable points, practicing clearing the structure, and using the right tools for the job is a recipe for success.

And I would not use a shotgun unless it's all that I had. I'm accountable for each and every one of those pellets. That said when times were leaner I did use a shotgun because it's all I had.

The only thing that's going to stop projectiles reliably is the body of the meth head who broke in. My plan is to use that as a backstop and fire as few shots as possible.

I honestly think if one wanted the optimal gun, one should take a cue from the professionals and either go with the M4 style rifle and get some frangible loads for it, or heck I've even been thinking the M1 Carbine would be ideal for this situation: accurate, right overall length, considerably more powerful than a handgun, etc.

 

[BlueLion]

Yeah,,,Euc... I would love to find a M1 for sale for the right price.

 

[Bud White]

Euc im gonna argue with you there as a bird hunter them pellets do tear stuff up .

Reason they dont tear up a whole lot is from spreading out hit a bird right off the barrel no bird .. Ex is right on that one

A 20 at close range will do the job just fine

 

[JustinM]

I'm liking the 20 gauge with birdshot idea. I'll be in a studio apartment probably sleeping in a sleeping bag until my gf comes so we can afford more. There's really no cover or any place to hide so if anyone did break in, I'd really have no choice at all but to defend myself. I'll see what kind of a discount I can get on a mossberg 20 gause when I get there. Thanks guys!

How about this? Look at the very bottom one

http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/Specpurp.htm

 

[ExSoldier]

M1 Carbine?

ExSoldier I'm going to have to cross paths with you on this one.

Glaser Safety Slugs may have their time and place but I'm convinced that defending my person in the middle of the night isn't one of them. Check out the box O' truth when they shoot the Glaser into the jugs of water... that wouldn't stop somebody not reliably.

As for the small bore shotgun with the birdshot load, I don't buy that either. Those loads are deliberately engineered to NOT inflict trauma so they don't tear your little bitty bird up.

I am convinced that planning your living space around its vulnerable points, practicing clearing the structure, and using the right tools for the job is a recipe for success.

And I would not use a shotgun unless it's all that I had. I'm accountable for each and every one of those pellets. That said when times were leaner I did use a shotgun because it's all I had.

The only thing that's going to stop projectiles reliably is the body of the meth head who broke in. My plan is to use that as a backstop and fire as few shots as possible.

I honestly think if one wanted the optimal gun, one should take a cue from the professionals and either go with the M4 style rifle and get some frangible loads for it, or heck I've even been thinking the M1 Carbine would be ideal for this situation: accurate, right overall length, considerably more powerful than a handgun, etc.

Ahhhh where to start? Okay Euc, I might agree with your assessment of the Glaser & MagSafe IF I were worried about getting attacked by a gallon jug of water. Flesh in no way approximates the characteristics of a jug of water. Both Glaser and MagSafe have amassed some impressive stats in real life encounters. Both have survived multiple lawsuits (Use of the word "safe" in both their titles was more than marketing savvy it was genius!). I load my primary carry mag with MagSafe because as you said, I'm responsible for that round once it exits my muzzle. If I miss my intended target, I don't want that round traveling a long distance and killing a kid. The Glaser and MagSafe won't go too far and if they strike a hard surface they simply "powder." So no richochets, either.:yup:

One of the theories behind the use of a handgun in the home defense arena is that it is supposed to allow you the survival time to fight your way to a BIGGER weapon. The shotgun has been the supreme home defense weapon for over 150 years. It has a ton of deterrence before you ever even have to confront the BG. Just "rack the slide!" It's like you're giving the BG a chance to bug out before you splatter his guts all over the walls. The killing power of birdshot is magnified if it doesn't have the chance to spread before striking the target. Inside an apt the ranges are going to provide about a 3-4 inch spread of lead which is a heckuva lot of human killing power. Remember, by the time the bird shot gets to the bird, it's spread into a patter about 40 inches in diameter and you're actually killing the bird with only a few of the hundreds of pellets that left your gun. At the closer range you're dumping ALL of those hundreds of pellets into a tightly grouped area.:wave:

Do you know that the M1 carbine has amassed one of the most dismal records for "stopping power" ever? Worse, it's only available in ball ammo, which as we all know is over penetrative and under reliable. Some versions are known for being extremely Jam Prone.

If you want a carbine in a pistol caliber may I suggest either the Mech-Tech 45 conversion for the Glock M21 or my own beloved Kel-Tec Sub 2000 folding carbine in Shorty Forty? Tons of reliable bullet configurations available, too.

I think you're putting too much trust in this "Box of Truth" site, Euc.:hand5:

 

[ExSoldier]

I'm liking the 20 gauge with birdshot idea. I'll be in a studio apartment probably sleeping in a sleeping bag until my gf comes so we can afford more. There's really no cover or any place to hide so if anyone did break in, I'd really have no choice at all but to defend myself. I'll see what kind of a discount I can get on a mossberg 20 gause when I get there. Thanks guys!

How about this? Look at the very bottom one

http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/Specpurp.htm

I almost bought one of those 410 pump guns with the forend pistol grip for myself. :danceban: Nice gun.

 

[Bud White]

M1 carbne for Hd i dont think so do better with a pellet gun

 

[Euclidean]

Look let me ask you guys a question or two.

First, if 20 gauge loaded with birdshot will do the job reliably, then why don't the police and military use it? They use shotguns for the same application a homeowner would.

I can agree that if we're sub Tueller distances the spread isn't going to be much, but if I were a bettin' man I'd say that the birdshot would make an awful lot of shallow holes. It would look nasty and the guy would probably bleed to death if EMTs weren't present PDQ, but I am dubious it would actually stop someone. I think this is one of those apophrycal tales much like the use of rock salt.

Second, how many people use say a .45 caliber pistol with an extended magazine as a home defense gun... quite a few I would imagine. Is that a poor choice? I submit it is not, I use a very similar pistol for my personal defense every day as do many others.

Now how is a long arm that delivers 2 or 3 times the power a worse choice?

I'm left scratching my head at this one. 20 gauges for for mutant squirrel attacks.

I'll pose a final question to you guys: I don't have any one there to worry about but myself. I could probably use the shotgun to great effect. However what happens when you wake up and find a hostage situation? Still feel good about that shotgun?

I'm not trying to be defeatist, I just don't think that a small bore shotgun loaded with anything but a slug or buckshot is something I want to stake my life on.

 

[jarhead79]

I think you are safe with your handgun ammo. Apartments aren't that big in the first place. Your BG won't be over 7 yards away, likely no more than 3. I hate to say it, but if you can't hit him, you should go to the range. jk.

This is what I come up with.

 

[jeephipwr]

Shotgun

I am going to have to agree with EL on the birdshot issue. I have hunted birds for yearts and yes, birdshot will drop them but if you look the penetration, most brid shot only penetrates about 1/4 inch of flesh and takes the bird down. Granted, they are shot at a little farther range then a perp would at point blank, but the physics behind the mass of the pellets will show that they lose momentum pretty quick so the distance of a few yards and layers of clothing may make a big difference. I would pick a load no smaller tha #4 to start with and go to 00 with the next shot.

 

[OldDawg]

Euc,

As far as the Home defense shotgun issue... If encounterd with a hostage situation & I have my Mossberg 590 which is my home defense gun I would just hit the slide release Jack in the next round which is a slug. & use the peep sight to put one into the BGs brain Pan..

I load all my defensive shotguns with a mix of Buckshot or #7 shot & low recoil slugs ... These leaves me a choice as it is easy to dump a round by ejecting it to get to what is needed

 

[ExSoldier]

Nothing is RIGHT or WRONG...Everything is merely TECHNIQUE.

:banana:

Look let me ask you guys a question or two.

First, if 20 gauge loaded with birdshot will do the job reliably, then why don't the police and military use it? They use shotguns for the same application a homeowner would. Cops have to operate at ranges far in excess of that found in an apartment and they also have be meet certain state standards.

I can agree that if we're sub Tueller distances the spread isn't going to be much, but if I were a bettin' man I'd say that the birdshot would make an awful lot of shallow holes. It would look nasty and the guy would probably bleed to death if EMTs weren't present PDQ, but I am dubious it would actually stop someone. I think this is one of those apophrycal tales much like the use of rock salt. At close range I think a load of birdshot would take a man's head clean off.

Second, how many people use say a .45 caliber pistol with an extended magazine as a home defense gun... quite a few I would imagine. Is that a poor choice? I submit it is not, I use a very similar pistol for my personal defense every day as do many others. The argument has been made that in the area of home defense, the handgun allows you the survival time to reach the shotgun, which has been the priemere tool in this role for over 150 years. I feel well armed with a 45, but I'd feel comfortable with my Benelli 12!

Now how is a long arm that delivers 2 or 3 times the power a worse choice? The key in an apartment remains overpenetration not just of inside walls wherein the potential victim is a family member but through an outside wall, ceiling or floor to threaten others.

I'm left scratching my head at this one. 20 gauges for for mutant squirrel attacks. :spankme: :image035:

I'll pose a final question to you guys: I don't have any one there to worry about but myself. I could probably use the shotgun to great effect. However what happens when you wake up and find a hostage situation? Still feel good about that shotgun? That's easy, dump the shot and load slug. At that range with my Benelli M121 I can't miss!

I'm not trying to be defeatist, I just don't think that a small bore shotgun loaded with anything but a slug or buckshot is something I want to stake my life on.

Nobody's asking you to stake YOUR life on this, Euc and nobody is saying you're wrong, either. We're trying to give advice where it was requested within some very narrow parameters.:wave:

 

[AutoFan]

The ol' "M1 Carbine isn't a manstopper" myth. It's a 110 grain, 30 caliber bullet travelling at ~2000 fps out of the muzzle. That's about the same as a 7.62X39 at 100 yards. Or 600 fps faster than a 7.62x25 out of a Tokarev or VZ-52. Or 800 fps faster than any 9mm. And JHP's and softpoints are available from Remington and Federal. What it suffers from is a lack of ammo manufacturers producing loads in the lastest and greatest bullets. Think of the above stats with a DPX from Cor-bon or some similar state of the art bullets.

Having said that, I remember an article by Chuck Taylor where he tested various popular handgun, rifle and shotgun calibers against interior wall construction. Aside from 22lr, they ALL penetrated several walls. So either don't miss, or have a backstop.

BTW, every test I've seen on birdshot shows it does not penetrate past 7 inches in bare ballistic gel. Which means a messy wound, but not one that will stop.

 

[ExSoldier]

Ballistic Gelatin Doesn't Measure ALL the Factors

The ol' "M1 Carbine isn't a manstopper" myth. It's a 110 grain, 30 caliber bullet travelling at ~2000 fps out of the muzzle. That's about the same as a 7.62X39 at 100 yards. Or 600 fps faster than a 7.62x25 out of a Tokarev or VZ-52. Or 800 fps faster than any 9mm. And JHP's and softpoints are available from Remington and Federal. What it suffers from is a lack of ammo manufacturers producing loads in the lastest and greatest bullets. Think of the above stats with a DPX from Cor-bon or some similar state of the art bullets.

Having said that, I remember an article by Chuck Taylor where he tested various popular handgun, rifle and shotgun calibers against interior wall construction. Aside from 22lr, they ALL penetrated several walls. So either don't miss, or have a backstop.

BTW, every test I've seen on birdshot shows it does not penetrate past 7 inches in bare ballistic gel. Which means a messy wound, but not one that will stop.

Bare Ballistic Gel doesn't measure the factor of Shock and I'll bet a faceload of birdshot will induce not only shock but may extract the total life force as a further result. Translation; SHOCK CAN KILL.

I remember a study on both the Glaser and Magsafe rounds and they didn't penetrate all the way thru any such wall. There's a reason the Sky Marshals are using prefrangible ammo on those aircraft. It doesn't have anything to do with the mythical Goldfinger Factor but rather a concern that some very sensitive backup systems are located in areas vulnerable to the possibility of gunfire.