Defensive Carry banner

1 - 20 of 58 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
This is not going to be your "typical" 9mm vs 40 vs 45 flame thread. Instead, I am going to try and show where MODERN ammunition and technique will drop a threat (bad guy) with a 9mm. There is so much misinformation, bias, and B.S. out there that it is not even funny. So many of these "so-called" tests are done in support of one particular caliber instead of evenly across the board.

Let's start off with the basics. Many cops (myself included) use the Speer Gold Dot JHP (jacketed hollow point) in the 9mm, 40 or 45. It is a bonded round and proven to be a high quality defensive design. I will focus on these rounds only for this thread.

Here is step one of the ballistics profile:
9mm +P: 124 grain, muzzle velocity 1220fps, energy 410f/lbs
40 S&W: 165 grain, muzzle velocity 1150fps, energy 484f/lbs
45 ACP: 230 grain, muzzle velocity 890fps, energy 404f/lbs

Why +P 9mm? It is superior to a normal 9mm and still does not have the recoil of the 40 or 45. You'd be a fool not to use +P. Most cops that shoot 9mm are using +P so...

Step 2 of the ballistic profile:
One shot stop % on center mass that struck the heart or severed a major artery/vessel:
9mm +P = 92%
40 S&W = 94%
45 ACP = 94%

Two shots, same criteria:
9mm +P = 99%
40 S&W = 99%
45 ACP = 99%

Note: do not confuse this with instantly stopping the threat. This is where the subject was hit and eventually bled out.

Step 3 of the ballistic profile:
Did the round penetrate beyond the FBI's recommended 12"?
9mm +P = yes
40 S&W = yes
45 ACP = yes

Step 4 of the ballistic profile:
Did the round exit the target after passing through center mass and penetrating beyond 12"?
9mm +P = no
40 S&W = no
45 ACP = no

Thus ends the ballistic profile portion.
Summary: the difference between the three rounds is so minute, it does not really matter which caliber you choose so long as you can hit center mass, especially with a double tap.

Now you will hear others cite passages about energy transfer, kinetic energy, the mythological knockdown power, velocity x expansion, etc. These may (I use may liberally) have a place for argument if your shots are NOT center mass, otherwise don't worry about them. You shoot to kill, and as such keep shooting until the threat is eliminated. You don't stop after the first shot to see if you get the fabled "1 shot stop," nor do you do a physics study on the energy transfer to the target.

Oh, btw, pistol rounds WILL NOT knock a person down by slamming into them. Argue it all you want to, it simply can't happen off physics alone. The correct term is "stopping power." The only guaranteed way a person instantly drops from a pistol shot is if the spine or brain are destroyed by the shot. If it is not a spine or brain shot, some people can keep on fighting, others will stop in their tracks. YOU NEVER KNOW.

Shooting speed and follow-up shots:
The difference in follow-up shot speed is not measured in seconds, but fractions of a second. This is also judged by actually scoring back to back center mass hits. Pull the trigger, land a good hit, manage the recoil, get back on target and land your follow-up center mass as well. Yes the 9mm is the fastest of the three. How much faster? On average around 1/10ths of a second faster than the 45 and 2/10ths faster than the 40. These numbers reflect the average shooter with a factory pistol. If that's all the difference, why worry about speed? There are two types of shooters in a gun fight: the quick (who may still be injured) and the dead.

Overall summary: pick a caliber that you are comfortable with, can score multiple center mass hits with, and can afford to practice with.

Ignore the fanboys and hype. So many cling to the 45 is king because of the military's use of ball (non-hollow point) ammo. Ball ammo is a different story entirely.

If you choose to carry a 9mm, use high quality +P ammo, practice until you can land multiple center mass hits quickly, and be confident in your ability.

Most handgun shootouts are from 7 yards and CLOSER. At that range, it is point shooting, where you get near max velocity and energy with all three rounds. If you really want to train to win, practice the Mozambique shooting drill: 2 to the chest, 1 to the head.

I do, and use all three calibers (M&P .40, GLOCK 34 9mm, Springfield XD 45). I prefer the 9mm.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
446 Posts
Nice write-up from someone who appears to know first hand. You've re-affirmed what I've settled in my mind anyway after researching it. I'm also tired of the "9mm is for those who squat when they p.." comments from locals.

Thanks for the work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,974 Posts
good writeup HOWEVER.... Just kidding :hand5:


I'm not so much a .45 fan as a 1911, tompson SMG, KRISS SMG fan :king:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,231 Posts
Modern ammo, modern results. The civil war was so deadly because of modernized ammo.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts
Shooting speed and follow-up shots:
The difference in follow-up shot speed is not measured in seconds, but fractions of a second. This is also judged by actually scoring back to back center mass hits. Pull the trigger, land a good hit, manage the recoil, get back on target and land your follow-up center mass as well. Yes the 9mm is the fastest of the three. How much faster? On average around 1/10ths of a second faster than the 45 and 2/10ths faster than the 40. These numbers reflect the average shooter with a factory pistol. If that's all the difference, why worry about speed? There are two types of shooters in a gun fight: the quick (who may still be injured) and the dead.
I will use 7 yards as an example as you stated most gunfights will occur at 7 yards or less.

I can shoot 7 yards A zone splits (6"x11" zone) with a .45 cal handgun (using a 1911 but that's not what it this thread is about) on demand and achieving 0.17 splits consistently.
What you are saying that a 9mm can do that on average 0.07 sec / split? That would be 857 rounds / min.
Even a full auto gun would have a very hard time to keep up.
Never going to happen!!!

Also a .40 cal handgun cycles faster then a .45 (always a faster gun)
Lets assume that I shoot the same drill using a .40 cal gun. Let's assume I am not even faster on the splits with the .40 still scoring
0.17 splits on a 7yard A zone.
Now you saying that a 9mm is 2/10 faster. Lets do the math:
0.17 - 0.2= -0.03 sec Well I can not add anything to this number...it speaks for itself.

I gotta assume you never owned a shot timer...

Well the 9mm handgun is definitely faster...hence minor scoring. It's speed comes from the minor power factor loads, less muzzle rise, less recoil. But once you start using +P ++P loads and that .355 - .357 caliber projectile weighting an average 125 grains starts reaching speeds comparable to a .357 magnum round... controllability will suffer.

Just food for thought...

OK I have to go now I have a lot of practice to do at the range.:image035:


disclaimer:
I am no ballistic expert neither a firearm expert.
I am a shooter...a competitive shooter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,531 Posts
I can shoot 7 yards A zone splits (6"x11" zone) with a .45 cal handgun (using a 1911 but that's not what it this thread is about) on demand and achieving 0.17 splits consistently.
What you are saying that a 9mm can do that on average 0.07 sec / split?
Never going to happen!!!

Also a .40 cal handgun cycles faster then a .45 (always a faster gun)
Lets assume that I shoot the same drill using a .40 cal gun. Let's assume I am not even faster on the splits with the .40 still scoring
0.17 splits on a 7yard A zone.
Now you saying that a 9mm is 2/10 faster. Lets do the math:
0.17 - 0.2= -0.03 sec
I gotta assume you never owned a shot timer...

Well the 9mm is definitely faster...hence minor scoring. It's speed comes from the minor power factor loads, less muzzle rise, less kick. But once you start using +P ++P loads and that .355 - .357 caliber projectile weighting an average 125 grains starts reaching speeds comparable to a .357 magnum round... controllability will suffer.

Just food for thought...


disclaimer:
I am no ballistic expert neither a firearm expert.
I am a shooter...a competitive shooter.

Agreed on this.

The math isn't there.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
13,684 Posts
Nice post. Actually, I've never really been one to debate the calibers. I keep an open mind, and carry what I chose solely dependent on my feelings for that particular day. When weather and garments dictate I carry the 45, I will. When weather dictates I go lighter, it may very well be the nine. I find myself carrying the 40S&W most of the time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts
An other interesting observation.

Backward falling steel are always calibrated with a 9mm handgun.
(hit the popper if it falls it's good to go)
If 9mm takes it down all the major calibers will do.

Never done the other way. Set as heavy where .45 round takes it. Other rounds would have a problem....I gotta assume.:wink:

Food for thought again.




disclaimer:
No I am not 9mm / Glock hater. I respect both the cartridge and the maker for what they have been achieved.
I can't wait to pick up a G19 from the price table at some match. :danceban:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
288 Posts
Interesting thread and a good read.

I don't carry anything smaller than 9mm. It is always comforting to be reassured that it is still a viable defense round.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,765 Posts
Interesting read...I don't know that I buy all the math and/or the quoted split times as anything to condsider IRL...There's a lot of difference between "race gun" competition shooting... and shooting at BG's that shoot back... I'm just saying.....:rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,203 Posts
Great! Makes me feel good about my two CZ 9mm's! Thanks for your hard work in writing this up!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,428 Posts
Interesting read.

The OP was referring to average people with stock guns when talking about follow up shots. The "average" shooter probably puts less rounds through their guns in a lifetime than some of us put through ours in a year or two or three.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Farronwolf hit the nail on the head. Times were calculated off the average shooter, not those who constantly train, shoot competitions, elite military units, etc. Although police officers carry pistols, you'd be surprised how many DO NOT train regularly, or just barely qualify.

Yes, you as an individual may be faster than the times listed, and you may have a customized pistol which reduces recoil, lighter trigger, etc. Those are unique and not "out of the box" with an average Joe shooter.

The data itself came from 2 main sources: Speer's website for the cartridge info, and our own in-house testing. We have our own forensic scientists, with 3 of them specializing in firearms and toolmarks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
916 Posts
9mm has been around for about 108 years now. It has served in every war that has transpired during that time. It has, and continues to serve in miltary and law enforcement entities all over the world. That it is an effective caliber is not a matter of debate by intelligent folks.

I carry my 9 most of the time, but when possible I will carry the .40. I use standard pressure in the 9 because there is really no penetration advantage to the +p. Plus the +p is hard on the weapon, the wallet and me. :smile:

I have become very fond of the .40. Didn't think I would like it that much, but find I do. And I really don't notice the recoil difference much between the 9 and .40.

I do not fill under gunned when carrying the 9, nor should anyone.

If I were made to choose one over the other, I would probably go with the .40 simply because I enjoy shooting it just a hair more than the 9.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,974 Posts
Paper, gongs and BG care not what caliber you have. What counts is doing research and not settling with something you don't want. Unless the BG is on drugs or out of his mind a slug hitting his body will stop him from doing what he was going to do.

Don't denounce .45, It isn't inferior.

10mm is in a ballistic sense superior to .40 but isn't exactly practical. Its a high pressure, long round and there aren’t many CC friendly pistols that are chambered in 10mm. Not to mention the price of ammo.

.40 is more practical then 10mm that is why it is more popular but 10mm guys argue how inferior it is. Personally I don't give a hoot. .40 is effective, it works. Get over it.

Don't start with the .357 sig is superior thing... :twak:

as said before 9mm is VERY popular around the world and it has been around as long or a bit longer then the .45 acp

Just like 9X19 has improved so has .45 acp as they both have been around 100 years. But they both do the same thing, hitting the target with a chunk of metal. You have 9mm with a smaller mass moving really fast and the .45 with a large mass moving pretty fast.

the caliber debate is as bad as the AR vs AK debate. Its pointless since the tech is constantly improving. Better powder, better bullets, more reliable primers, more beefy, high tech guns. AR and AK are improving with aftermarket parts and manufacturers.

Shoot what you feel comfortable with, and the ammo that the mfr recommends for your firearm. Remember no matter what caliber you use, they all throw lead down range. :danceban:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Just tossing random thoughts out after reading through the replies...

Not sure if razor's above post was directed at me or in general.

I have never denounced the .45 or said it was inferior. It is a great caliber, but only marginally better as a single shot to center mass vs the 9mm.

The 9mm has been around longer than the .45 ACP.

The 9mm is not limited to 9x19. The 9mm luger and parabellum are x19. You have also have 9x17, 9x18, 9x21, 9x23, Short, Long, Cristo, Kurz, etc. It all depends on the manufacturer and what they choose to name it. .38, .380 and .357 Sig are also "9mm."

My original post was to show where the 9mm is a proven round and effective with proper shot placement, and should not be discounted as inferior, undergunned, or wimpy. All three calibers get the job done in 9mm, 40 and 45 if you destroy the brain, spine, or make the bleed out.

Incidentally, more people have been killed with a 22LR than any other round. :blink:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,406 Posts
Incidentally, more people have been killed with a 22LR than any other round. :blink:
Ya' know, I've heard this for years, but have never seen anything to substantiate the statement. I can possible buy it, if we limit it to civilian casualties, but add in military combat deaths and I have my serious doubts.

I tend to classify it as another oft-quoted, but unproven, urban shooting legend.
 
1 - 20 of 58 Posts
Top