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Discussion Starter #1
After a few other threads about the Kel Tec sub 2000 in DC. I ran across these on youtube.

The summary (jump to about 11 minutes). They are making iron sights hits at 440 yds. and they are showing serious penetration. The round is NOT used up at that distance. Yes, it is getting down on power (about 130 ft.lb) and he is using some serious dope to hit. However, it is what I have always said. NEVER underestimate a man who can shoot. Especially if you give him time to work.

 

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M1 carbine: 110 gr HP @ 1900+ fps

Just sayin’...
 

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For civilian CQB and home defense where penetration isn't a priority, makes me wonder why anyone would consider 300BLK/5.56.
You should try shooting some 12 gauge slugs. Besides penetration IS a priority in stopping the threat.
@viney266 Have you ever read the label on a box of 22LR? I have personally shot some out in the flat desert. They do indeed fly one mile (1,760 yards) when the barrel is elevated to allow the maximum range shot. And, as many incidents witness, they are capable of killing an animal like a cow at that range.

But again, the issue is not how far a cartridge is lethal, or how far it will shoot, but how quickly it stops a threat. Whole 'nother ballgame.
 

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For civilian CQB and home defense where penetration isn't a priority, makes me wonder why anyone would consider 300BLK/5.56.
Because .458 Socom was out of stock...
 

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Discussion Starter #9

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I have said it before and will say it again. Unless you are hunting lethality is not you concern, how fast it stops an attack is.
^^^ Absolutely true. However, FIRST you have to hit what you are aiming at...then the bullet still has to work (the point of this video)
 

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M1 carbine: 110 gr HP @ 1900+ fps

Just sayin’...
Or... 32 win special. 170 gr at 2300 fps. And it's in the coolest rifle of all. A lever action. If someone is approaching my house as a known threat from 440 yards, I can guarantee if they are out in the open, giving me room to work, the 32, or the 303 in the back room will make sure they don't make it to 435 yards. And if they do make it the next 5 yards, they will have a bunch of extra holes in them.
 

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Or... 32 win special. 170 gr at 2300 fps. And it's in the coolest rifle of all. A lever action. If someone is approaching my house as a known threat from 440 yards, I can guarantee if they are out in the open, giving me room to work, the 32, or the 303 in the back room will make sure they don't make it to 435 yards. And if they do make it the next 5 yards, they will have a bunch of extra holes in them.
I'm guessing you don't get a lot of UPS deliveries.
 

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For civilian CQB and home defense where penetration isn't a priority, makes me wonder why anyone would consider 300BLK/5.56.
I dunno, I'd guess a chitload more effectiveness in a similar sized package??

Not to mention that with proper bullets a .223/5.56 has less chance of overpenetration when used for HD. Once you move to a short barrel (really suitable for HD) the .300ACC outperforms a .223/5.56.

This is yet another one of those "yes a 9mm PCC can make hits at 440 yards and has ample penetration (FMJ, yes.... JHPs???), but is it the best tool for the job??" type questions.

I've got a 9mm PCC; great gun, fantastic training tool, could easily be pressed into service for HD. Choose it over one of my .223/5.56 or my .300AAC for HD??? Not a chance in hell. Not wanting to get into a Lethality discussion with Bad Bob, but everything I've been able to research leads me to believe that the majority of folks shot by handguns survive. Those center-punched by rifle cartridges....not so much by a large margin. Now the intent is to stop a threat, not kill, but I think it's safe to infer that if a cartridge has a higher rate of lethality, then it should in theory have a higher chance of stopping a threat.

A long barreled 9mm should be more effective than a short barreled 9mm (Carbine Vs. Pistol) based on increased MV. but IMHO neither comes close to a rifle.
 

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I only trust a 9mm handgun or carbine for last resort bad-breath fighting distances. If I am shooting something at 400 to 500 yards, I want a 300 Winchester Magnum or better caliber rifle with a good bullet drop scope. A 300 Win-Mag still has over 1,500 foot/pounds of energy at 500 yards for a quick stop.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
A long barreled 9mm should be more effective than a short barreled 9mm (Carbine Vs. Pistol) based on increased MV. but IMHO neither comes close to a rifle.

^^^100% AGREED. i WOULD always take the rifle if I had the chance, but if I had that little sub 2000 in the trunk or nothing else? It's nice to know it WILL reach that far. Honestly? I can't imagine a situation over 50 yards where I wouldn't just be driving away in the car at high speed. Just a nice exercise in "can it do that".
 
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Several/many years ago a kid here in Arkansas shot a .22 into the air and killed a guy a Very long ways off. It's been so long ago I don't remember the circumstances. Something in the back of my mind says it was a watch this moment yet I can't say that with full certainty. Never the less it was way beyond the distance anyone would think a .22 was effective. Don't underestimate bullets destructive abilities.
 

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Several/many years ago a kid here in Arkansas shot a .22 into the air and killed a guy a Very long ways off. It's been so long ago I don't remember the circumstances. Something in the back of my mind says it was a watch this moment yet I can't say that with full certainty. Never the less it was way beyond the distance anyone would think a .22 was effective. Don't underestimate bullets destructive abilities.
A big deal when I was a kid was the mile and 1/2 warning on 22 boxes. It has to do with trajectory, angles and luck (or bad luck).
 

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Discussion Starter #18
So, I wasn't the only one reading the tabs on those boxes as a kid? :)
 

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I only trust a 9mm handgun or carbine for last resort bad-breath fighting distances. If I am shooting something at 400 to 500 yards, I want a 300 Winchester Magnum or better caliber rifle with a good bullet drop scope. A 300 Win-Mag still has over 1,500 foot/pounds of energy at 500 yards for a quick stop.
You're either talking hunting, or SHTF 'peace loving' violent liberal mobs when you're talking those distances. At SD/HD distances, all the pistol service rounds have similar stopping and failure to stop rates, and ANY centerfire rifle round is better than a pistol or shotgun, with similar stop and especially failure to stop rates among all calibers.
 

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You're either talking hunting, or SHTF 'peace loving' violent liberal mobs when you're talking those distances. At SD/HD distances, all the pistol service rounds have similar stopping and failure to stop rates, and ANY centerfire rifle round is better than a pistol or shotgun, with similar stop and especially failure to stop rates among all calibers.

Stuff happens and I like options.
 
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