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yup, it does. Unless I'm out on the road, I don't have a shooting lane more than about 100 yards, if that. If I was a hunter, I'd be focusing on the game at that yardage, and then choose a rifle with SD/HD in mind after that. But everyone has their own choices to make. Everyone has a different set of objectives and paths to choose. Foe me, in the city, I don't have that kind of open lane. Even from the top of the 4 story building, there's not that long of a shooting lane open. And I doubt I have the skill to make that kind of shot at more than 100 yards, if that.
 

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My thoughts:
* Do we have agreement that combat situation of war and law enforcement are different than self/home defense? Just because military and SWAT have it or do it, doesn't mean civilians will be in those same situations and have the same requirements for the tool selection.
* Have we all read anecdotes of 5.56 not having the stopping/killing power in combat? Or that 7.62x39 is more effective? Or the caliber wars?
* Isn't it all about shot placement + penetration?
* Is the "one shot" still a myth?
* How much more, if any, is 5.56 going to stop an attack versus 9mm? How much worse, if any, can 9mm out of a long barrel be for self/home defense, versus 5.56?
* What are the SD/HD requirements?
* What tools meet those SD/HD requirements?

If we can't answers these questions, then thank God our area of the world isn't that terrible!
 

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My thoughts:
* Do we have agreement that combat situation of war and law enforcement are different than self/home defense? Just because military and SWAT have it or do it, doesn't mean civilians will be in those same situations and have the same requirements for the tool selection.
* Have we all read anecdotes of 5.56 not having the stopping/killing power in combat? Or that 7.62x39 is more effective? Or the caliber wars?
* Isn't it all about shot placement + penetration?
* Is the "one shot" still a myth?
* How much more, if any, is 5.56 going to stop an attack versus 9mm? How much worse, if any, can 9mm out of a long barrel be for self/home defense, versus 5.56?
* What are the SD/HD requirements?
* What tools meet those SD/HD requirements?

If we can't answers these questions, then thank God our area of the world isn't that terrible!
The questions can be answered to some extent, just have to do some research. For instance, since you're into rhetorical questions;

"Why would a civilian home defender want a less effective weapon than what LE and military has??" after all "Don't all have the same basic goal of stopping a threat?"

"If SWAT guys do entry operations into houses, how much different is that "operational environment" from my house?"

And a really good one; "Why did LE gradually move to .223/5.56 from sub-guns??, could that same rationale have an effect on HD weapon/ammo selection?"

Here's one view:


The service caliber handguns might be a wash, but pay attention to the delta between handgun and rifle/shotgun. You can pretty much substitute a 9mm carbine for the .357 Magnum data based on MVs.

And there's more:

Barriers and Structures
The Bureau’s research also suggests that common household barriers such as wallboard, plywood, internal and external walls are also better attacked with pistol rounds, or larger caliber battle rifles, if the objective is to "dig out" or neutralize people employing such object as cover or concealment.Conversely, the ability of some pistol rounds to penetrate barriers tested puts innocent bystanders and fellow team members at greater risk in CQB scenarios. If an operator misses the intended target, the .223 will generally have less wounding potential than some pistol rounds after passing through a wall or similar structure. The close range penetration tests conducted indicated that high velocity .223 rounds were initially unstable and may, depending on their construction, disintegrate when they strike an object that offers some resistance. The .223 could consequently be considered safer for urban street engagements, because of its inherent frangibility within the cross-compartments created by street environments. In other words, in most shootings, the round would probably strike something, hopefully a hard object, break up and quickly end its potentially lethal odyssey.
.223 Wounding Characteristics
Ballisticians and Forensic professionals familiar with gunshot injuries generally agree that high velocity projectiles of the .223 genre produce wounds in soft tissue out of proportion to their calibers, i.e. bullet diameter. This phenomenon is primarily attributed to the synergistic effects of temporary stretch cavity (as opposed to the relatively lower velocity stretching which typifies most pistol rounds) and bullet fragmentation on living tissue.
Regarding NATO’s 62-grain FMC M-855 (SS109) .223 caliber round Dr. Fackler observed that the bullet produces a wound profile similar to the M-193’s, particularly where abdominal or thigh wounds were involved.
The FBI study clearly demonstrates the following: (1) that .223 rounds on average, penetrate less than the hollow point pistol rounds evaluated, (2) concern for overpenetration of the .223 round, at close range, has been greatly exaggerated, (3) with the exception of soft ballistic garment penetration, the .223 round appears to be relatively safer for employment in CQB events than the hollow point bullets tested.

In summary the .223 carbine is an extremely flexible and effective anti-personnel weapon with, in many cases, handling characteristics actually superior to many contemporary SMGs. It offers the advantages of reduced logistics, lower costs and reduced training time when compared to agencies employing multiple specialty weapons. The caliber in its current offering is far from perfect, but in spite of some shortcomings, I anticipate that in the future it will eventually replace pistol caliber SMGs in many police departments and law enforcement agencies.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?138472-223-5-56-CQB-effectiveness


You're free to choose a 9mm carbine over a .223/5.56 for HD, but the "just as" type rationalizations really are BS.
 

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Chuck R., I've read and re-read Ellifritz's study many times and I do think it's excellent. But one question that he does not address in his study is the accuracy of long guns as compared to handguns. Although there are some people who can deploy a handgun with great accuracy (we have many here), I suspect the "average" person cannot. I suspect that the accuracy of shot placement with a long gun compared to a hand gun accounts for a certain percentage of the difference in "one shot stops" between handguns and long guns in Ellifritz's study. How significant that is can't be determined from his existing data.
 

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Chuck R., I've read and re-read Ellifritz's study many times and I do think it's excellent. But one question that he does not address in his study is the accuracy of long guns as compared to handguns. Although there are some people who can deploy a handgun with great accuracy (we have many here), I suspect the "average" person cannot. I suspect that the accuracy of shot placement with a long gun compared to a hand gun accounts for a certain percentage of the difference in "one shot stops" between handguns and long guns in Ellifritz's study. How significant that is can't be determined from his existing data.
Agree 100%

But again, there is I believe enough data in addition to the Ellifritz study to support that a high velocity projectile creates wounds that are "different" than low velocity rounds. In the vignette provided on the link I posted for instance:

When the autopsy was performed, the forensic pathologist was amazed at the degree of internal devastation caused b the .223 round. The round struck the subject 11 inches below the top of his head and inflicted the following wounds: · Penetrated the top of the left lung, left carotid and subclavian arteries. · The collar bone and first rib were broken. Cavity measured 5x6 centimeters.

What is significant about this "instant one-shot stop" was that the round did not strike the subject at the most effective or optimum angle and did not involve any direct contact with the heart or central nervous system. It is doubtful that this type of terminal ballistic performance could have been achieved by any of the police service pistol/SMG rounds currently in use.
Like many of these type studies, there are flaws. One of my favorites is the delta between physiological and psychological stops, which is probably the toughest to differentiate unless the subject is DRT.

I hate to use animal/hunting comparisons, but anybody that's killed big game with a rifle, pistol, muzzle-loader should have an idea of the differences in the wounds created. Pistols & muzzleloaders (also shotgun slugs) act similarly by punching a hole. A HV rifle however has what I call the "jello effect" where internal chit is turned into goo.

Accuracy aspect, no doubt a long gun is superior. It's just that once I've chosen a long gun, I'd rather have it in a long gun caliber when it comes to SD.
 

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Chuck R., and I agree with you. I hunt and every time I have taken an animal, have been astonished at the devastating effects of 7mm-08 and .308, so I understand the differences well. But I do think accuracy does come into play in this, too. Like someone said here a long time ago, I don't think there's much difference between "dead" and "more dead." Given a choice, I would rather go up against a bad guy with my Sig MPX rather than my Sig M11-A1 (both are 9mm).
 

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0EEA9F5C-A7D5-466B-9AF9-B0F62E0D6110.jpeg It all makes for interesting banter to kill the time, but there ain’t no guarantee.

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A416C070-3787-467F-AF39-0D32197265E7.jpeg 7BC953E7-A47E-460D-A5FD-BF7359765C99.jpeg

30-30 Winchester from a few feet; enter thru chest and out the back of the arm, one of many, many that I have seen over time, and the only one that I documented with pics.
Wish I had a $10 bill for all the one shot stops and deaths I have seen caused from a .22 rifle.

Id still want about anything over a 22 if I had a choice, but it just goes to show that things don’t always make sense.

I do confess, that such information can be ruled as anecdotal, yet, there it is.

I think it’s more important to match the bullet to the job, regardless of caliber, than caliber in and of itself.
However, the bigger the caliber, the less critical the selection of bullet imo.
 
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Internet consensus is caliber doesn't matter for self defense. Internet consensus is caliber is critical for bear defense.
I had my own opinion long before the inet. Along the way I have learned a few things, and confirmed a few things
 
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I think the OPs point is that hits can be made at distance with a 9mm carbine, father than most would think. And that it can still be somewhat effective. Kind of like the .30-30, which also gets underestimated. Gotta know the dope, and be able to figure distances.

Pros and cons to everything, debating which is better without setting the mission is pointless.

My son and wife could use my 9mm PC carbine in a civil disorder situation, and it shares mags with my Glock, and my wife’s Glock. Does that make it “better” than my 5.56 carbine, my 12 gauge, or my .30-30? Well, given than neither of them would be able or willing to use the latter three options...yeah, it well might.

:tired:
 

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Discussion Starter #38

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Isn't that cartridge notoriously disliked becauwe of it's lack of effective stopping ability? 1900fps is pretty anemic for a rifle.
It is anemic for a rifle, but compared to a 124 gr 9x19 at 1100 fps it will get the job done in most home defense situations, especially with newer bullet designs.
 

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It is anemic for a rifle, but compared to a 124 gr 9x19 at 1100 fps it will get the job done in most home defense situations, especially with newer bullet designs.
But the .30 carbine is a smaller caliber and lighter grain than 9mm Luger. It is far below the 2400fps guide for temporary cavity damage. And it doesn't carry or conceal like a pistol. I can't transport it under my pistol license. 9mm is cheaper and easier to find.

I can carry an AR pistol with better performance in many calibers. I can carry so many better calibers in a carbine. The M1 carbine may be fun for a collector piece. There isn't tactical or legal reason to seek one out.

9mm carbine can only be justified by contorted legal requirements, or just for fun reasons. But I can appreciate that.
 
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