[cszy67]

Scenerio: one of us detains a bad guy at the scene of a crime, within minutes LEOs are swarming around us and we are standing there in plain clothes, without a badge, and with a firearm in our hand aimed at another person.

This is a potentially fatal situation for lawful citizens such as us. I would like to discuss what to do and why to do it backed up with some professional advice.

Recently in Norfolk, VA, a plain clothes officer was shot and killed by a uniformed officer as both responded to an in-progress call: Norfolk Police Officer Shot And Killed

Here are some tips I pulled from a Street Survival Reminder article.

1. Cops LOVE in-progress calls, and it's our nature to rush in, ready to fight crime and save the day. This could mean one of us taking a dirt nap if we are not prepared to communicate exactly who we are and what we are doing.
2. Communicate with dispatch...snip...for example: "I'm wearing a navy blue suit with a shoulder holster." Whoever has a cellular phone available MUST communicate via 911 who we are, what we are wearing, and what we are doing, etc.
3. UNIFORM ALWAYS TRUMPS PLAINCLOTHES! Follow any order given to you by any uniformed officer on the scene until ALL ARMED PERSONNEL have been advised that you are a law enforcement officer/lawfull citizen. Never assume that anyone knows you are a police officer/lawfull citizen until you receive verbal confirmation.

Article: Street Survival Reminder: Officer's death yields tactical tips for plainclothes officers

In simple terms: let EVERYONE know who you are and be prepared to lay down your firearm when a LEO arrives on scene.

Any additional information/comments are appreciated. I feel this is an important issue to all of us.

 

[Redneck Repairs]

Thanks for the post, it is indeed an imporntant issue

 

[WJP9]

A good reminder all around. Not that anyone wants to get tied up in a situation such as this...but good to have in the back of the mind. The more you "train your brain" to consider different scenerios, the more automatic you will act---or react--- when actually in them.

 

[Rock and Glock]

Good reminder - and the communication via cell phone could be a life-saver.

 

[P95Carry]

It is most certainly one of those things very much uppermost in mind - and essential to be aware of.

LE, no one in fact in many situations, can possibly know thru guesswork just who the good guy is. :frown:

 

[SOLOLUCKY]

Another reason we all should have our "concealed weapons liscence holder badge" on us and ready to whip out in a moments notice.

naah just kidding!
but definitely something to think about because i would expect if LE rolled up on us in that situation we should expect him to exit his vehicle, draw his glock, drop behind the cover of his open door, and draw down on us. no words we say will matter for a few seconds. ya simply lay or drop yer gun REAL FAST.
and god i'd hate to drop my 1911 on the sidewalk but...

 

[dimmak]

vital information.....
Cant expect LE to know who is who upon arrival...

 

[Scott]

This is why I carry a gun I don't mind tossing on the ground and kicking across a parking lot or whatever. When the uniforms arrive the gun will be hitting the ground, or they will likely shoot you. Movements not consistant with dropping your gun will also likely get you shot.

 

[Thumper]

My instructor told me when asked about this scenario… "When the police arrive, show them empty hands high and do exactly as you are told. Lose the gun as they are coming in, either back in the holster / pocket, or somewhere where the BG can't get a hold of it".

I think this is sound wisdom coming from a veteran officer! :yup:

 

[Tros]

Clear communication and slow movements are all very important, I imagine. Common sense dictates that you simply do what the officer says and then when the situation is under control, explain yourself.

I have never been in a situation involving firearms, but between stories from family members who are LEO's, and then first hand experience witnessing shtf situations, people become stupid and pumped up. It's as simple as "listen to what the man in the uniform and has the gun says."

 

[timbo]

Try holding gun with one hand and holding your wallet/ i.d. in the other and hold over your head, this will make them hesitate enough where they won't burn a hole in you , hold your i.d. over your head and state loudly " i'M A PISTOL LICESNEE, DON'T SHOOT!!! and comply with their commands.

 

[Kat]

My general rule of thumb (exceptions will always be out there) is that I don't plan on holding a guy at gun point.

If my life won't be in danger by telling him to take a hike, that's my response. Hopefully, the quick cell phone call will put the cops on him quickly. Since I'm not in the business of catching bad guys, only protecting my life and those close to me, I can't see that I have much to lose by getting him to leave and I'm avoiding the potential issue created when the police show up and I'm holding a gun on someone.

If there is a dispute about how the scene went down, I've also caused the bad guy to leave the scene (dosn't look good for him).

Also, consider the affects of BAR (Body Alarm Responce) that you'll likely be suffering from. Will you hear the cops show up, will your tunnel vision allow you to see them show up, etc., etc. ?

Again, what do I lose by telling him to leave?

 

[Wayne]

Kat, you may not lose anything (I don't know if you can be held criminally liable for letting a BG go that you've just drawn on, most likely because he was a threat to you, yours, or another).

But, how many others will "lose" something because you felt it was better to just "let him go"?

As for me, I would just do that special twirl thing with my finger in the trigger guard. Most likely with a Glock with a cartriage in the chamber...... j/k :gah:

No, I would just comply with the LEO's demands. Most likely I would have already put the gun up (into it's holster) as soon as they came up and have my hands WAY UP into the air.

Wayne

 

[Packman73]

This is why I carry a gun I don't mind tossing on the ground and kicking across a parking lot or whatever.

There is no way I'm kicking my XD across the parking lot! I can see it now,
"Put the gun down on the ground!"
'O.K.'
"Kick the gun toward me!"
'WHAT?!?, this thing cost me a weeks pay!'

 

[Todd]

There is no way I'm kicking my XD across the parking lot!

+1 on that! Although it would be a good excuse to send it to Canyon Creek for a new finish job! :image035:

 

[Scott]

Well there is Plan B.

Club BG until unconscious, holster gun and wait for police. Alternatively standing on their throat may work well. :smoke23:

I figure you never know what will happen. I'll bet Army chopper pilots and crews didn't figure they would ever deal with POWs. But when the enemy surrenders to a chopper, what are you going to do?

 

[srfl]

Excellent reminder cszy67 of what CCW carriers and plainclothes LEO's need to do when "confronted" by uniformed LEO's.

 

[rocky]

Yep, a few plainclothes/ off duty cops have been fired upon by uniform officers. Nice reminder.

 

[MarkM]

Good reminder thanks. Wasn't an officer in plain clothes shot accidentally by a fellow officer in VA recently?.

 

[glockman31]

All of you are absolutly correct, I would never disobey a LE in this kind of situation, however...if the LE's roll up on a scene and they have been advised from their dispatcher that we have someone at gun point, just having a gun does not give that LE officer the right to shoot and kill me. There are policy and procedures that he must follow before he pulls the trigger. One of the most important issues I see LE do not do is ask enough questions. The officer should ask(or tell) me to lay my weapon down, once the weapons are down he should ask if I have a license to carry, then at that point the weapons should be secured and everyone seperated and my weapon given back to me once he finds out that I have a license. But, it does not( and will not) happen like that, instead most of these LE officers are young and gungh ho and only know what they need to know to get by who cares about the law!

Law Enforcement needs a re-vamping of its system and the way that they handle people. I do agree that if we have someone at gun point though that we need to tell that dispatcher to let the responding officers know that we are armed legally. This should not be an issue when they get on scene, but for so many people and officers it sadly is.
It is the job of Police Departments to protect the general public, that includes you and I. There is no reason that an officer should roll up on a seen and be eager to shoot someone, even if they do have a weapon. It is an officers job to know when his life is in danger or not in danger, odviously pulling up on scene and seeing someone at gun point should tell the officer that something right must have happened(how many times has this happened in the reverse with a bad guy having the good guy at gun point?)

Point being, pulling that trigger should be the LAST thing on an officers mind, talk talk talk....that is the most vitale thing an officer can do, get a hold of the situation and control it.