[P95Carry]

I thought this from THR ( http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=162338 ) might be of interest - tho while posting it I'll also add straight off the court decision. It is a case in which I expect most of us would fairly easily predict the outcome.

There are of course variations on the way some folks might view it - according to state. I am not sure but I think was maybe in TX.

How many stupid moves can you spot by all participants?

Charles Keitt decided he needed some new windshield wipers. So with two of his friends, he drove by the home of Bennie Peterson with plans of "salvaging" the windshield wipers of Peterson's wrecked car.

Peterson caught him in the act of doing this and some harsh words were exchanged. Peterson went back inside the house, grabbed a pistol and returned to the yard. During this time, Keitt and his two buddies had gotten back into their car and were getting ready to leave.

Coming outside into the yard with an unloaded revolver, Peterson stopped to load the gun while yelling "If you move I will shoot!". He then walked up to just inside his own gate and said "If you come in here I will kill you!" even though Keitt was still sitting in his car and had made no attempt to exit the vehicle.

At this point, Keitt decides to exit the vehicle. He took a few steps towards Peterson and said "What in the hell do you think you are going to do with that?" Keitt then turned around and began to retrieve a lug wrench from his car. With the wrench raised above his head, Keitt began to advance on Peterson. Peterson warned Keitt not to take another step. When Keitt continued to advance, Peterson shot him in the face from a distance of ten feet immediately halting the attack.

Two questions:
1) Justifiable self-defense or not?
2) How many stupid tactical decisions can you count in this scenario?

Now the court outcome -

Peterson was convicted of manslaughter and appealed all the way to the federal circuit court - losing every single appeal along the way.

Key factors in Peterson's conviction:

1) Like many here noted, these were seen by the court as two separate incidents. The first one started by Keitt; but the second one started by Peterson. Peterson's decision to return to the house and then pursue someone who was retreating but him in a very bad spot with the jury. His decision to tell Keitt not to come into the yard while Keitt was sitting in his car was seen as a challenge rather than a warning.

2) Peterson was the first to display a weapon and this was deemed disproportional force for stopping the henious crime of windshield wiper theft. Because Peterson introduced lethal force into the scenario before there was any justification for it, he was held responsible for escalating it.

3) At the time this shooting happened, there was no clear doctrine on duty to retreat in the jurisdiction. The jury was instructed that they could decide that Peterson's failure to retreat, if he could do so safely, contributed to the problem. They apparently decided that failure to retreat played a role.

 

[Scott]

What can you say? Poor judgement all around.

-Scott-

 

[Bud White]

My opinion is same as on the High road to many stupid things to count

 

[srfl]

As Massad Ayoob used to like to say to my LFI-II class..."proceed to Mongo!"

- Meaning that if you make a bad call that leads to unfavorable results in court, you will go to prison where your bunkmate (and new "playmate"), Mongo awaits.

 

[Q-ball]

Nice Head Shot!
Bad Tactics.

 

[RidemCowboy]

Bad Day?

Remind me to stop by NAPA next time I need wipers.

 

[Scott]

I just reread the title. P95 was being cryptic to avoid the profanity filters. He doesn't mean "to assess" he means something about 2 donkeys.

-Scott-

 

[P95Carry]

Darn it Scott - I knew someone would find me out :biggrin:

 

[QKShooter]

A General Answer

I've said this once before & I'll say it again.
We folks with common sense tend to subliminally assume that most other people in the world have some rudimentary semblance of the same common sense.
We make a serious mistake AKA "A VERY GRAVE ERROR" by thinking that other random human beings see the world &/or life...even approximately the same way we do. And they DON'T....at all.
They mix up a Gigantic Vat of absurd Life Problems and situations for themselves and then they proceed to Cook Themselves in it. :dead:
Steer Clear of them or they will pull you right into their cooking pot with them.

 

[RSSZ]

P95, Hope that everybody reads the above case and the outcome. I feel that allot of shootings weather deemed justified or not fall along these same lines. We all need a "refresher" on reality. ---- QKShooter, Didn't really understand what you said,BUT,it was said allot better than I could have said it. So I'll have to agree. Seriously,we sometimes just take it for granted that all the other people out there have the same mindset as some of us here. I feel that we here are different than the regular people walking around in our society. I'm not saying that we are special,blessed,or better than somone else. But,I do feel that we are more aware,better trained,and over all ready, for the decissions that will have to be made during a scanerio such as(or similar to) the above one. Again I say,good luck to us all.---------

 

[oregonshooter]

Must have been a 44 mag revolver, no .38spl could stop a man with only one head shot.

 

[Mongo]

As Massad Ayoob used to like to say to my LFI-II class..."proceed to Mongo!"

- Meaning that if you make a bad call that leads to unfavorable results in court, you will go to prison where your bunkmate (and new "playmate"), Mongo awaits.

Mongo takes exception...

 

[buzzg]

A good friend of mine nearly put himself in a similar position, but fortunately the situation did not deteriorate to that outcome. The other guy left. I've had a long talk with said friend. He had just purchased his handgun and has had no training yet and doesn't have a carry license. He is now more aware how close he came to being in big trouble over a minor trespass infraction. BTW, when did Mr. Peterson load the revolver? ("Coming outside into the yard with an unloaded revolver, Peterson ........)

 

[buzzg]

Oregonshooter:
Just for the record, a dead center head shot (forehead above the eye brow) with a .22 will shut down the power plant instantly. Seen it happen.

 

[oregonshooter]

Buzzg,
I was being facetious about the caliber.

There really is nothing critique on this story because it's all bad. I should have said nothing, sorry.

On the road this one would be summed up as NHI. No Humans Involved.

 

[Mongo]

My answer at THR... Flame me if you must...

Event One --

Peterson caught him in the act of doing this and some harsh words were exchanged. Peterson went back inside the house, grabbed a pistol and returned to the yard. During this time, Keitt and his two buddies had gotten back into their car and were getting ready to leave.

Event Two --

Coming outside into the yard with an unloaded revolver, Peterson stopped to load the gun while yelling "If you move I will shoot!". He then walked up to just inside his own gate and said "If you come in here I will kill you!" even though Keitt was still sitting in his car and had made no attempt to exit the vehicle.

I hate to say this, but I have to agree with the jury. These are two separate events. When Peterson grabbed the gun and came BACK out, event two started. From the story, the Keitt thugs were leaving (with or without the wipers, is unknown). Keitt was not on Peterson's property. Keitt, at that time, was not threatening Peterson. Peterson was po'd (rightfully so) and should have called the Police. He made several bad choices:

1. Not calling the police.

2. Not having a loaded gun when he went back out. (I don't agree with him going back out, but his gun should have been loaded)

3. Brandishing the gun at Keitt and threatening him with bodily harm. If he was going outside to yell at him some more, he should have concealed the gun. The brandishing probably escalated the argument.

 

[Free American]

The one question I now have to ask, if the guy comes out with a gun to shoot somebody for stealing windshield wipers...was he under the influence? I really can't see a sober person being that irrational.