[High Altitude]

I got this off of packing.org, this did not happen to me.

http://www.packing.org/community/general/thread/?thread=2149

"My Justified shooting experience.
I put this in the Home defense section because this seemed like the most appropriate section. I was involved in a shooting at my work at a Super 8 motel off Brice rd in Columbus Oh. This happened on the sixth of last month. I didn't want to post anything until things had cooled down and I got a feel for what the law enforcement officials thought. I am pleased to say that the Columbus Police department, were very professional about the whole situation, and even when they had to do there usual routine, never made me feel like a criminal, and they kept me well hidden from the media. I was expecting the worst from the police from all the negative things I've heard people say happen to them after a shooting, so I was very relieved. The officers that I was with did their best to make sure that I was OK, and made me as comfortable as they could. Anyway, I'd like to address some of the things that I learned from this confrontation, and also re-address some things that most of us in the ccw world already know.

A confrontation will be extremely quick and extremely violent: I teach this in my concealed carry class, but never really thought about it. From the time that the Robber walked in and pulled his gun, to the point where he was lying on the pavement was 13 seconds. The shooting portion from when my gun cleared the holster to him on the ground was under 3 seconds (I got these times from the time recorder on the security camera video)

You must remain alert, ALWAYS: I was unprepared for this, I must admit. When he walked into the lobby, I totally didn't even notice him. I was busy checking a guest in on my computer that I didn't even look up. It wasn't until the other desk clerk started acting frantic, and the kid came behind the counter that I looked up and saw him wearing a mask and a gun in his hands.

Holster options: I now know that I don't want any type of retention strap on my firearm. I had one during this incident and realize had I not had the other desk clerk there to conceal my actions of drawing, I don't think I would have been quick enough. When I practice drawing, I always practice undoing the strap at the same time to make it quick, but you MAY loose your fine motor skills, which makes it just a little more difficult, especially for me because I was using a Glock 27, which is a little difficult to get a grip on to begin with, because I can't use my back fingers on it because it is so small. I was using a cheapie nylon, but will now be upgrading to a Galco retention style. In my opinion, just pay the money to get a good holster. Also, I know for sure that an ankle rig would have been almost useless. I think they are good for just BUGs.

Point shooting: As I stated before, everything happened so fast. I didn't use the sights. I used muscle memory and point shooting. I believe it is imperative to get yourself trained to shoot quickly (double and triple tap drills) and to get your muscles used to your relative point of aim. More than likely you will never use your sights. It will all be point shooting.

Never say anything: You will probably want to talk about this experience, especially with the police. DON'T DO IT!! Anything you have to say right after the shooting you will have to say the next day. No matter how cool calm and collected you think you will be or feel, you still need to calm down. I didn't realize I was wound so tight, until I loosened up. Anything you have to say, can come through a lawyer. I gave no statement that night, and looked for a lawyer the next day just in case. I had other witnesses who gave statements, so I never even needed to give one, and haven't yet. Why bother if it's not needed. It could only hurt you to give a statement that night, waiting to give a statement through a lawyer never hurt anybody.

These are just some things I thought I should share. I may post a few more things later, but for right now this is it. If you would like to read a little more about the shooting, you can yahoo search it. Type in "Shooting at 2055 Brice Rd." or you can look it up on the civilian self defense blog.

Thanks, and stay safe, Ramsey. "

He fired and hit the BG 3 times with a Glock 27 in .40 S&W putting him to the ground.

Here is his update.

http://www.packing.org/community/general/listview/7371

"UPDATE on my justified shooting!
Well as some of you may know, I was involved in an attempted robbery at the motel I work at this past August. I wanted to write and update you guys on the outcome of it all. The robber had been pleading not guilty (even though he was on video, had a gun, and was shot full of holes and bleeding at the scene of the crime)
The police had my gun all the way up to the day of the trial to be used as evidence, but before it began he plead guilty. My gun was returned to me the next day. He took a plea deal which was supposed to be 11 years. 10 for the robbery and 1 year for a gun charge. They dropped the other two gun charges that carried a year each due to the deal. Well he was sentenced to a much shorter term of 7 years, which I guess was good because his lawyer was trying to get him off with just probation since it's his first felony as an adult, even though he has armed robbery and a GTA on his juvenile record.

Good thing that didn't happen. Prosecutor said he might have even got off with only 4 years had a child not been present. It's kinda weird to me that they agreed on 11 years all together, but the judge only gave him 7. Whatever though.

The police took very good care of my gun while it was in their hands. I had heard many horror story's of guns coming back missing parts, or all scratched up, if even coming back at all. They even gave me the live unused-used rounds as well. No hassle at all really. The only thing I would like to see is being able to have your gun back after whatever tests need to be done to it are finished. The firearm used to shoot the person shouldn't really be needed present as evidence, as pictures and reports should be just fine, but other than that I am happy with the outcome. Well stay safe everyone and keep packing. "

 

[High Altitude]

High Altitude you are indeed a brave guy. I doubt if I ever had to shoot some one that I would reveal as much info as you have. I guess I am just paranoid. Nevertheless, thank God you are safe and here to even share.

It did not happen to me. I am only cross posting it for the benefit of everyone. If you follow the links to the original posts you can post your message and it will be seen by the actual person involved.

 

[High Altitude]

OK guys, here is another one. Originally posted by RoadRep from glocktalk.com about 3 years ago. "GT" stands for glocktalk.

Again, this did not happen to me.


"You won't hear a story of an Uzi or AK because thugs want unarmed victims, but this may wet your whistle a bit.

A guy and his lady friend are walking down a street after eating a nice steak dinner on Friday night. The area is busy and the only parking available was a nice walk away, not a problem on a beautiful October night.

So the guy, who has had a lot of firearms courses, notices a van slowly driving the other direction on the street. The guy notices the deep gurgling sound of the exhaust, but really doesn't think much of it. Then he notices a couple of thugs crossing the street; said GTer is uncomfortable because he and his lady friend seemed to get too much attention from the guys crossing the street. One of those "it just doesn't feel right" type of things.
Kimber .45

So the couple continue walking toward the parking garage, when the GTer notices the gurgling sound of that van slowly passing by them. Then the GTer, who regularly uses windows to watch his 6, notices the two thugs that crossed the street coming up behind them. One of the thugs is clearly holding his right hand suspiciously around his belt buckle area. Then said GTer notices the van stopped on the side of the street just ahead and the 2 thugs behind them are getting closer.

GTer tells his lady friend that they are going to duck into any open business they see, but there were not any available. Just as they were coming up on the van, 2 ****-eaters jump out of the van and block the sidewalk. GTer draws his Kimber .45, and moves to engage the thugs 5 feet behind them; the intention was to go to low ready and size up the situation. The two from the van did not appear to be armed and one behind them was already spotted as armed.

So GTer turns and starts to shout at the two thugs on foot when the armed one begins to pull a revolver (SW .38 special). GTer had the jump because the thugs in the rear did not see him remove his pistol from his daytimer style carry (they had been where alcohol was sold, but he did not drink).

The GTer always, always, always shoots failure drill at the range and trains at least twice a month.

As the BG #1 pulls the pistol, the GTer puts two rounds center of mass and moves up and puts one in the eye area. There was absolutely no reaction to the chest shots in the BG. The second thug turns to his falling comrade and tries to get his pistol, as GTer puts 2 slugs in his COM and one in the side of the head, GTer didn't know he hit BG #2 with the first 2 rounds. The second thug didn't have time to get turned around to face GTer, and didn't go down from the two to the chest, so said GTer puts one is the side of his head. Both third shots, at 5 feet, were very messy. Luckily for GTer, the second thug did get his hands on the pistol (a fact that would greatly help him in the future). So after the two in the rear were neutralized, GTer turned to check on the two from the van who had started moving his way. When GTer turned to engage them, gun at low ready, they turned and ran to the van got in and the van sped off.

The thugs were linked to other rapes and 2 abductions of similar method, and had sheets as long as your arm (funny how that wasn't admissable in court). The thugs from the van looked more pissed than scared, and GTer would encounter them later in life. Turns out they were members of the Gangsta Disciples. The Gangsta's don't take lightly to seeing their bros being shot down in the street.

The aftermath: Said GTer was charged with manslaughter (the jury was given other options too) and was found not guilty by a jury of his peers. Deliberations took less than 3 hours. Some of the city council PERSONS believed that failure drill represented too much force and GTer should have not made the last shot on the guys. Of course, if he had not made the third shots in the failure drill, the thugs would be alive today. So city council PERSON, pressures the DA and voila, the decision is made to charge him.

The cost to GTer to stay out of prison was $18,000+. That works out to be $3k per shot, or $9k per bad guy.

The situation doesn't often end as well in his dreams, as it did in real time, but he never can quite get it behind him. He carries a strange sense of guilt.

The girlfriend that GTer was trying to protect broke up with him 3 weeks later. She just never could get over it and could not understand the violent nature of his counterattack. She dumped him, which broke his heart, but she was a very good witness for his defense, and for that he is eternally grateful.

The follow up encounters (turns out during a trial, it isn't hard to get the home address of the defendant) with the Gangsta Disciples were a little better; and no charges were placed in those instances.

Sorry if GTer wasn't armed with an AK, but then they would never have picked us to attack.

The morals of the story: Live with what happened, or with what may have happened -- his girlfriend being abducted... It is better to be tried by 12... When the SHTF, you fall back on your training in automatic mode. So train well and often.

--

I started out telling it in third person because I really don't want to sound like I am proud of it or bragging and I don't mean to be. I did what I had to do and was vindicated.

Yes it did happen. October 1998. The whole thing exhausted a lot of my savings, and some credit card debt that has since been paid for. The PD Commander on the scene allowed me to go home that night and to come in the following week with a lawyer to make a statement. Everything was clear and obvious to them that night, some officers even commended me.

My initial intentions were to confront them while in the low ready, and hopefully shout them off. As I turned around, the guy had his hand on his gun and was pulling it. I am sure that if he had seen my gun sooner, he would have it pointed at me. And there is the possibility that he drew because he saw mine, but had he stuck his hands up or ran off, I would not have shot. That and their priors convinced the PD that I had acted properly. There were 3 witnesses approaching from behind the van that saw what the van did, and the whole thing. They told the police that night, I had to do it. When they blocked us in, I had no choice but to act.

I was handcuffed and locked in a patrol car for a while, where I puked up that fine steak I had just eaten. Odd feeling when it is over.

The DA prosecuted under political pressure. I did not spend any time in jail, because it was only after the political pressure did the DA decide to prosecute. I surrendered and had bail arranged before we went in. The PD were really nice to me, and they even indicated they thought I was getting a ****ty deal. The Assistant DA that handled the case did not seem to be too interested in getting a conviction. The investigating officers were better witnesses for me than the state. She (assistant DA) allowed my lawyer to seat my dream jury (some code words there) and she let him get some stuff out. At one time my attorney indicated that she wasn't pushing it because of the way she conducted herself.

Girlfriend: Leslie was a nurse and one of those "I could never hurt anyone" types; I am a nurse and we heal...blah blah blah. Another long story. She did not know I was armed that night, or most nights we were together. I found out early that she didn't warm up to guns, so I didn't push it. No huge loss, the timing is what hurt. With all else going on, the last thing I needed was her breaking up. It was not until the trial that I really knew what she would do on the stand. What she did on the stand was enough to settle it for me. I hold no grudges against her, never did. But I won't date another nurse.

As far as the terminal ballistics of the .45. In classes my failure drill from concealed holster generally run in the 1.5 to 2 second area. I doubt any handgun caliber will create adequate results in less than two seconds. I just opened up like I had trained to do. I was going with the 3rd shot, unless the guy was on the ground out of it. When I say there was no reaction to the first two rounds, I meant his head was still where I expected it to be. I never have planned to stop and fully assess the vital signs of an attacker. My plan has always been to do the failure drill if the pumpkin was there and it was. It all happens so fast, you wouldn't believe it.

Since I was innocent, I can still carry.

As for the follow-up visits from the Gangsta's, I prefer not to get into that right now. Very long ugly stories. On 2 possibly 3 (the 3rd I spotted them and called the police and kept riding around the parking lot, the police came and ran them off so I don't know what their intentions were or if they were there to visit me) different occasions there were young gentlemen waiting for me when I got off work, once was an attempt to kick in my front door while I was home. I highly recommend the Remington 870.

I moved after the initial incident, and the phone company messed up and my 'unlisted' number got listed. So I moved again. A Lt. with the gang squad said that after a while, the membership would turn over to the point they would forget about me. That officer was at my trial and alerted me to potential retribution. There were a lot of Gangsta's at my trial. Relatives of the deceased I guess. I currently live in another city with an unlisted number. It has been 4 years, so I hope the follow up visits will cease. Everyday when I step out to get in my vehicle, I stop and scan the parking lot real good. My experiences have served to give me an edge and to keep me on my toes, and to keep me awake at night. Better than the alternative.

If I may offer one piece of advice to anyone who will listen:

If you are ever involved in a shooting, resist all urges to look at the guy after he is down. Move out of the area, and don't ever look at them. You want to remember them as a threat, not as a corpse.

Thanks for letting me get if off my chest."