Additional training beyond conceal carry class

I took a Firearms Safety course in college in the 1980's, I went to college later in life, and the full two-day NRA course in the mid-90's. Both were prior to applying for my CHP. Since then, I have taken three courses on Virginia law and the use of deadly force and one course on advanced concealed carry, which was mostly a seminar to cover topics which tend to come up with people after they have received their permits. I have also spent the time to watch several video courses on the subject as well.

I am a firm believer in continuing one's "education" regarding the laws of one's state, the finer details about carrying a firearm, and training with that sidearm. You can never have enough training, both in the practical aspects of employing a firearm in your defense and in the law of using deadly force.

Mike1956 said:

Very few, in my experience. Most are just interested in meeting the qualifications for getting their state license.

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Agreed, but I'm also on the fence with whether additional training is actually needed or not. Seems to me there was a decent study written by Ed Lovette a few years back that found that in the majority of successful civilian self defense encounters, the successful defender had absolutely no formal training (a minority had former .mil training). My guess is the ammo used was part of the original box acquired when the gun was bought.

Then there's also the Dunning-Kruger effect, in that a lot of folks just don't know, what they don't know. I used to get a kick out of watching "shooters" the 1st time they ran an IDPA CoF, because there's no target big enough and close enough that you can't miss completely when someone puts a clock on you with a gallery of witnesses for the 1st time. Even a little bit of stress does strange things to people not used to it. I have "gun guys" out all the time that can't get decent scores on relatively simple drills, but would probably be highly successful in a SD situation. Put them on a square range with a silhouette target and they group very well, add the "other" stuff and it comes apart. So I'm not to the point where I'm watching someone shoot and thinking; "dude, there's no way you'll survive unless you get that 1st shot time down under 1.5" or "with that kind of grouping at 25 yards there's no way you'll survive an active shooter at the mall scenario".

I usually take a couple classes a year, mixes between handgun, carbine with a low-light if I can find one. That's after a 23 year military career and a LE academy. I take training, because I like to train, I actually enjoy it, and miss it. It's funny because in uniform I dreaded the all day range events, now I pay money to do it on my day off. Also usually there's a good bunch of folks in the class. I also host training sessions at my place where we work various drills and set up IDPA CoFs, because when you come down to it I enjoy shooting and training. I just don't think it's a requirement to be successful.

Chuck

Chuck R. said:

So I'm not to the point where I'm watching someone shoot and thinking; "dude, there's no way you'll survive unless you get that 1st shot time down under 1.5" or "with that kind of grouping at 25 yards there's no way you'll survive an active shooter at the mall scenario".

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Funny you mention that. Several weeks ago I was at my local indoor range and there was a man in the lane next to me. He was shooting targets at seven to ten yards... the kind of targets that show a bright yellow spot where the bullet penetrates. His press out was textbook, as was his stance. Each shot he made was from a low ready to the press out. And his hits were among the tightest I have ever seen at a range. Consistent and just excellent. I was doing my usual group of drills where I do double and triple taps at paper plates with the target hold flipping from edge to face and back.

Shortly the man and I got to talking about sights and a few other things and I complimented him on his really excellent shooting. He told me that he needed to do what I was doing instead of just putting holes in paper.

So like you mentioned, I am much more concerned about getting my gun out and into action and putting rounds into an area of the target than I am with trying to shoot 1/2 inch groups in slow fire free hand. Of course, I would love to manage 1/2 inch groups consistently at seven to ten yards but I don't see that happening. Besides, I'm afraid that would negatively affect my practical defensive drills.

I was a shooter wayyyyy before I was a concealed carrier. Incalculable thousands of rounds thru innumerable firearms (I'm old). Every gun-game I heard about & some that were simply made UP! Growing up in a family of shooters, it was my passion, hobby and avocation. Been an NRA Lifer since the day...I WAS BORN, as were all my male 1st cousins (Thanks Daddy Mac!).

If it sounds like boasting, that's unintentional. When I read/respond to posts, I FORGET that some (most?) folks, even WITH the inclination, don't have the luck, space, resources, encouragement & culture that would allow a "shooter's life". Yet, 'round he'ah, in my circle, it's as common as dirt.

So the state-mandated training was just some boring legalese to remember & a short round of gun-fun. To answer the OP, yes. Any/every chance/excuse to pop primers is not a chore. It's a TREAT! :biggrin2:

My State does not require any training but I have sought competent training local and in neighboring States on a regular basis for decades. I will always consider myself a student and I have always been able to draw a least one specific element from any class I have ever attended and apply it to my own methodology. I do find that many places will have some signature shtick that sets them apart from other school or instructors and that shtick is not always what I would deem practical.. its like everyone wants to have their own tactical kabooki dance or something. Like in the 80's when everyone was wanting to incorporate some sort of roll into their tactics LOLOL! I still use the low ready stance with a handgun and get small behind a rifle with a grip on the magwell. I have gone to several places that encourage the high chest push out but I simply don't roll like that.

In most places, the minimum standard of training for a license/permit to carry a concealed handgun is far short of what's required to effectively employ said handgun in a defensive situation. To quote the late Colonel Jeff Cooper:

"Owning a handgun doesn't makes you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician."

To stretch that metaphor a little further, most CHL/CPL/CCW courses that I am aware of will train an armed citizen to the same level as a 30 minute session with a music teacher will train you to play lead guitar in a band. You may understand a few of the basics if you are lucky, and may have one or two exercises to practice at home - but you're still a long distance away from being competent.

My suggestion is to seek out competent, professional instruction in your area, and attend on a regular basis. Once you have been trained, PRACTICE what you were trained on. You will be shocked how much more you benefit from the training when you practice the skills and drills that you learned.

Another good way to promote effective practice is to join a local group that is shooting IDPA, IPSC, or USPSA style "fun matches" on a regular basis. This is NOT training...but it's fun, it will let you practice things that you can't do on most "square ranges", and as long as you keep in mind that you are doing it as defensive practice and not as a competitive game (which is what most people end up doing there) those 50 to 100 rounds a week can make a HUGE difference to your shooting.

Mike1956 said:

Very few, in my experience. Most are just interested in meeting the qualifications for getting their state license.

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Sadly true.

I am an NRA Instructor who is certified to teach Basic Pistol, Advanced/Defensive Pistol, Home Firearm Safety, Personal Protection in the Home, Personal Protection Outside the Home, and Refuse to Be a Victim. I also created a MA Gun Law by and for Non-Lawyers Seminar and Defensive Handgun 101 and 102 courses.

MA requires a course to get a LTC/FID and almost everyone quits there. I regularly schedule the NRA Personal Protection courses and only get a handful of students/year, I've seen zero interest in Refuse to Be a Victim (it's not a gun course), moderate interest in my MA Gun Law Seminar and the Defensive Handgun courses were recently created at the request of a student and very well received (I still need to fine-tune it). Other instructors I speak with report similar lack of demand.

I've taken four defensive handgun courses by nationally known instructors in the past and need to continue that in the future.