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Forester58: You have nade a good moderate comment, and for what my opinion is worth, i like it. The problem, as I see it, is that OC states do not "vet" OC folks, anyone can OC. That includes a gang banger, a serial killer, a heroin addict, or a white supremist with some loose screws. There is no way that the average person can know the mentality of an OC'er. So, emotions kick in and overrule any argument about the positive aspects of OC. It's like walking down a path where a rattlesnake lurks; the critter may, or may not, bite you, depends on how the snake feels at the moment.

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As far as not knowing if an OC'er might do something stupid depending on how he feels at the moment? Well the same can be said for the CC'er. There is no way the average person (or the police either) can know the mentality of a CC'er either. Feeling safe because of the assumption that all concealed carriers have gone through the vetting process to get a permit doesn't take into account that criminals, the very folks who are most likely to do harm, carry concealed without permits.
 
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As far as not knowing if an OC'er might do something stupid depending on how he feels at the moment? Well the same can be said for the CC'er. There is no way the average person (or the police either) can know the mentality of a CC'er either. Feeling safe because of the assumption that all concealed carriers have gone through the vetting process to get a permit doesn't take into account that criminals, the very folks who are most likely to do harm, carry concealed without permits.
to engage in a but of word scrabble, there is no way the average person of color can know the mentality of the police either!
 

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The problem, as I see it, is that OC states do not "vet" OC folks, anyone can OC. That includes a gang banger, a serial killer, a heroin addict, or a white supremist with some loose screws. There is no way that the average person can know the mentality of an OC'er. So, emotions kick in and overrule any argument about the positive aspects of OC. It's like walking down a path where a rattlesnake lurks; the critter may, or may not, bite you, depends on how the snake feels at the moment.
35 states currently allow open carry with no permit. 16 of those states allow concealed carry with out a permit, it doesn't seem to have caused a problem yet.

Herion addicts can not legally carry a gun period.

Gang bangers (assuming they've got a felony conviction and most of them do) can not legally carry a gun period.

Serial killers can not legally carry a gun period

White supremacists (whether you agree with thier political views or not) have the same Constituional protection on their right to keep and bear arms that you do.
 

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The main advantage is COMFORT. Especially in the summer months.

I’ve now held carry permits in four states, but Tennessee has now been my first where OC is an option. I generally like to conceal but when it gets warm, the option to OC is nice, although I prefer to simply put my Sig P365 9mm into my right front pocket under those conditions. But in the woods or fishing, OC is the order of the day. This pic was taken today. F7D5E9B7-165A-4453-97F9-2150AD564F1F_1576470102583.jpeg
 
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Cypher, you might be correct if you took Situational Awareness out of the mix. Additionally, if you took the training I’ve had in weapon retention out of my profile. I’m an older guy. Suicidal is the mentality that mistakes age for weakness.

I don’t OC with that rig in public places or obviously. Meaning, when I sat down in an outdoor cafe today with my wife and our pup, I took my arms out of the jacket and let the shoulders of the garment flop over the back of the chair while my rig was still hidden by the lower part of the jacket. When I had to use the restroom, I slid my right arm back into the sleeve and stood as the jacket continued to drape and conceal my strong (right) side with the rig. Slid the left arm into that sleeve and I was ready to move and draw as necessary and nobody in the vicinity was the wiser.

I’ve been a ccw permittee on a fairly regular basis for (gulp) forty years and an NRA Instructor for 31 years. Spent 14 years as an Infantry Officer (between active and reserve time). Suffice to say situational awareness is second nature for me.
 
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For what it's worth- Last week we had a group of buses parked in a vacant parking lot waiting for the partiers to come out of the bars. Four city cops come screaming in and block us in. They told us we couldn't leave until the State DOT got there and did an inspection. Pure harassment. Regardless, long story short, when the DOT officer asked to see my 'credentials' I handed him my CCW permit too. He handed it back and simply said he didn't need to see it. Didn't ask if I was carrying and didn't seem to care. I never told him one way or the other. I'm not to bright when I interact with cops. I respect what they do but I seldom respect the man/woman inside the uniform until given a reason to respect them (read - haven't got a God/holier than thou attitude). As such, this guy was an older gent like me and very down to earth.
 

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Cypher, you might be correct if you took Situational Awareness out of the mix. Additionally, if you took the training I’ve had in weapon retention out of my profile. I’m an older guy. Suicidal is the mentality that mistakes age for weakness.
Suicidal is the mentality that thinks "I'm too well trained for anyone to get my gun off me."

I've had people go after my gun at work and all the situational awareness in the world won't stop somebody who is task focused on getting your gun. (Guess how I know).

That's especially true when you consider that an Urban Carry holster is nothing more than a bag to carry your gun in.


I’ve been ccw permittee on a fairly regular basis for (gulp) forty years and an NRA Instructor for 31 years. Spent 14 years as an Infantry Officer (between active and reserve time). Suffice to say situational awareness is second nature for me.
I was in the Army about as long as you were and I don't recall ever having any training on concealed carry or handgun retention. Not ever, not one time.

Anyway, it's not my place to tell you how to carry your gun and it's not really my place to tell you that an urban carry holster is one of the worst possible options you could pick for a concealed carry and certainly a horrible option for open carry because it's not even designed for that. All that said though I would caution you against it because one of these days you may get the surprise of your life
 

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Cypher. you are of course 100% correct. But LEO's are far more likely to be at risk of a gun grab than I am. and I very rarely open carry anyway. Usually only when driving or in the woods.

I got my CCW retention training from DHS when I was in the process of getting my Master's Degree in National Security (concentrations in Intelligence Analysis and Counterterrorism) and it wasn't so much of a formal thing as it was a Q&A session with agents and I asked offhandedly if they could show me something useful???? I also got some training from friends in Special Forces. That holster is a GREAT one for CCW because it allows for a smooth, fast draw and I can use it for nearly ANY of my EDC guns from my Sig P365 to my Sig RCS 1911. I have other rigs. Most are from CROSSBREED but a few are 5*11's and those are level three retention holsters, which would be ideal for open carry because they require a proper touch of the thumb inside of the holster to release the lock.
 
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Cypher. you are of course 100% correct. But LEO's are far more likely to be at risk of a gun grab than I am. and I very rarely open carry anyway. Usually only when driving or in the woods.

I got my CCW retention training from DHS when I was in the process of getting my Master's Degree in National Security (concentrations in Intelligence Analysis and Counterterrorism) and it wasn't so much of a formal thing as it was a Q&A session with agents and I asked offhandedly if they could show me something useful???? I also got some training from friends in Special Forces. That holster is a GREAT one for CCW because it allows for a smooth, fast draw and I can use it for nearly ANY of my EDC guns from my Sig P365 to my Sig RCS 1911. I have other rigs. Most are from CROSSBREED but a few are 5*11's and those are level three retention holsters, which would be ideal for open carry because they require a proper touch of the thumb inside of the holster to release the lock.
I think I already said it in this thread but I am biased. I think open carry is a horrendous idea. I think it should be your choice not the State's but I really don't think it's best practices.

I am also really biased when it comes to Urban Carry holsters. I don't like anything that requires both hands to pull the gun because you might need that other hand to push somebody off or push somebody out of the line of fire. I'm also not hip with any holster used for open carry that has zero retention.

And I'm not happy with hybrid holsters at least not the cheap ones. Again, zero retention and you have to point the gun at yourself to get it back in the holster.

I'm a holster snob. Kramer for concealed, Safariland for work (I want no misunderstanding here I'm not a cop).

I'm also one of those people who doesn't have a "carry rotation" at any given time I'm carrying one of two Glocks. I suppose if somebody carried a bunch of different guns having an individual holster for each of them could get a little pricey.

I said all this to say that our philosophies of concealed and open carry are Polar Opposites so I'm going to just let this go you do you
 

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The main advantage is COMFORT. Especially in the summer months.

I’ve now held carry permits in four states, but Tennessee has now been my first where OC is an option. I generally like to conceal but when it gets warm, the option to OC is nice, although I prefer to simply put my Sig P365 9mm into my right front pocket under those conditions. But in the woods or fishing, OC is the order of the day. This pic was taken today. View attachment 308680
Jim, is that one of the old Law Concealment Systems? I still have one for a snubby, I've always liked mine.
 

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Cypher. you are of course 100% correct. But LEO's are far more likely to be at risk of a gun grab than I am.
In your case, statistically, I'm sure you're correct. If that is all you open carry. Quite possibly all civilian whom open carry are less likely than an LEO is to experience a gun grab situation. Simply due to the fact that police are going to the scene where criminals are committing criminal acts, and having to get physical with them. However, I believe civilians whom open carry are an easier target than a Law enforcement officer.
 

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OD: Yup, you nailed it. I got that holster for whenever I buy a new handgun and don’t have a fitted holster ready to go. Especially revolvers.

But for example, I have several holsters for the gun I showed, Sig RCS 1911. My favorite is a CROSSBREED Super Tuck Deluxe. But even that pales in comparison to the Law Systems in terms of sheer comfort to wear.

I never OC with it, though. I don’t actually OC at all except when driving on a trip and then I have to throw on a cover garment when I cross a state line (ridiculously easy in Tennessee when compared to Florida).
 
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That looks like a gun snatch waiting to happen
and although I generally consider the gun-grab to be the least significant of several potential perils, I do agree with your assessment.

Cypher, you might be correct if you took Situational Awareness out of the mix
a single person at ground level who is utilizing a primary 180- intermittent 360 while unassisted by tech or additional personnel can probably develop a "tea-cup" of awareness in a public space that they do not control. If you are "trained" as you seemingly indicate, you already know this.

Plenty of people who are impressively trained have been relieved of their weapon by people less skilled than themselves. When you add ZERO retention in what is essentially a openly seen gun basket.. initiative, timing and surprise can often overcome many superior skills at the ready, its just common knowledge. Generally speaking, the more training a person has the less likely they are to open carry to begin with. Weapon retention training is not magical, no matter who is giving the instruction or what "pointers" someone may have offered on the side.

You said previously that you do not OC much. I am not trying to be over critical of something you rarely do but to someone else who may elect of OC as a primary mode of carry, I think the criticism was worth pointing out.

I have plenty of issues with OC as a primary mode of carry but I will admit that the gun-grab is rather low on that list.
 

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If you really want to deny somebody the opportunity to snatch your gun, don't open carry.

I'm not a cop I'm a security guard and the reason I make that distinction is because I I'm not required to go out looking for bad guys. If I run into one it's like everybody else I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I am absolutely positive that there were three times that somebody was setting me up for a gun grab. All three times it was an impulsive act on the part of the other person and all three times it was a random encounter. Like I said, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The point that I'm trying to make is that they didn't take a lot of time to plan it out and they didn't give me a lot of time to prepare. You may really walk past the wrong person in Walmart and have them just reach out and try to take your gun and you had better be prepared for that.

All three times I was actually using the same holster. It was my company issued Safariland level 2 retention holster and all three times I looked like a hard target. And I don't think either of those two things had any bearing on the decision making process of the people that were trying to grab my gun. I don't think they even took time to weigh those factors out. I think they saw a gun and decided they wanted it and they went for it.

The only thing that deterred all four individuals was me squaring up on them and making it very clear that I was ready to fight.
 

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ONE of the reasons I limit myself to a very small number of handguns is so that I can have a properly fitted holster for each of them. I bought a Galco CM with each pistol. With further experience I've decided to replace them with Kramer holsters for my carry guns. I doubt I'll ever need to replace the Kramers

With all due respect when I see a Cross Breed I assume little or no actual training
 

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I could hardly disagree more than I do with John in the youTube you've attached. I think virtually all of his points are invalid and I wear the Galco KingTuk daily with my G29 tucked inside.
1. He complains about floppiness. For an OWB holster, certainly floppiness is something to be avoided. But IWB like these hybrids? It doesn't flop, it can't flop in the axis shown, it's pressed firmly against my bod by the belt worn and held pretty securely by the belt clips.

2. He complains about the small space in the portion of the holster covering the trigger guard. Remembering that this is worn IWB, I'd argue that the trigger protection is more than adaquate. Even busting through heavy brush, there's no way for anything to protrude down inside the trigger guard to active the trigger.

3. He has a bit of a point about the retention of a firearm in the holster, but I think it's only valid when you've loosened your belt and dropped your drawers. So long as your belt is properly tightened, retention is not an issue at all. I used a heat gun and adjusted the retention on my KingTuk to be a bit tighter than original, I wanted it to retain the loaded firearm even when inverted and shook a bit.

4. He complains that the kydex cracks. It may eventually but I've been wearing this KingTuk for a few years now, no cracks yet.

5. Loops vs clips - arguable. Clips are certainly more convenient, loops more secure. At this point, reminding that I've been wearing my KingTuk for a few years now, I've never had a problem with the clips sliding off of my belt nor are mine bent at this point. I admit they could become bent if they were to become snagged on something but that's not very likely in my case, I always wear my shirttail untucked with this holster.

6. His complaint about the slide sweat flap and muzzling himself when reholstering. I reholster differently than he does, I hold the flap against my body with my weak hand and I am very cautious when reholstering with any IWB holster.

7. The Galco KingTuk is thinner than the all kydex holster he shows.
 

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ONE of the reasons I limit myself to a very small number of handguns is so that I can have a properly fitted holster for each of them. I bought a Galco CM with each pistol. With further experience I've decided to replace them with Kramer holsters for my carry guns. I doubt I'll ever need to replace the Kramers

With all due respect when I see a Cross Breed I assume little or no actual training
I don't have any plastic guns so I don't need any plastic holsters.
 

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In numerous cases, the “good guy with a gun” theory pushed by the NRA and its adherents has failed to prove itself. Of the many mass shootings that occur in this country every year, it’s extremely rare that an armed citizen saves the day.
That's because they most always happen in "gun free" zones.
 
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