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Discussion Starter #1
Our church group (consisting of about 6 men, 6 women, and several young people & children) was at an outdoor public event the other day, and had a creepy interaction with a guy. He's a young clean-cut looking guy, no obvious drinking/drugs/mental impairment. We've seen him before at a few other public events, and he apparently hates what we stand for, because he has made some general threats and taunts before. However, this time he got more specific.

A lady that was not with our group but was talking to us heard him harrassing us verbally, and she walked over to talk to him - she basically I guess told him to hush up. She hurried back, saying that he had told her "I'll kill you and your whole family." I don't know her very well, so I didn't really know whether to believe her or if she misunderstood him or provoked him or what. She saw a police officer nearby and told him, and the creep came over and said flat out, "She's a liar. She's nuts. I never said any such thing." The cop just told him to go over to the other side of the street, and that was that.

However, another lady who was in our group later said that he came up to her after that, and in a low voice said some very disgusting things - not direct threats but very creepy stuff about rape and necrophilia.

Then for the next hour or so that we were there, he and his equally creepy buddy stayed where they could watch us, and casually trailed behind us when we moved up the street as a group. Needless to say, we had alerted everyone in the group and the parents were keeping a close eye on the children. We deal with rough people all the time in our ministry, so we weren't overly intimidated, but cautious and watchful.

When we finally broke up and went to our respective cars, parked several blocks away, I was concerned he might follow one of the families, but as far as I know, he didn't. I was glad I had parked alongside another family so I didn't have to walk back alone.

There are only two of us in the group that carry. I sure felt a lot safer knowing I could protect myself if he did decide to follow and start something.

So here's the thing: we will very likely run into him again. We don't know his name or anything about him. There is a remote possibility that he works for the city or for an agency associated with the city because of where & how we first encountered him months ago. I had my camera with me and did get him on film, but of course he didn't make any threats in my presence due to the camera.

Any thoughts or advice on this? Needless to say, we'll be on high alert next time we're out, and I carry all the time. But what do you do if there is no direct threat? I mean, a guy approaching a woman and threatening to rape her is one thing. But a guy standing next to a woman and just talking about how much he enjoys raping women - to me that's a threat, but how does that pan out as a reportable offense (especially without an ID for the guy) or a self-defense issue?

LibertyGal
 

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L.G.,

Glad you are personally prepared. But it seems to me that this festering organism has in mind a date with destiny.

Someone is going to have to deal with this organism on his terms if nothing is done to "control" the situation sooner.

Perhaps a wire and discreet camera some distance away would allow the local LEOs enough to go on, even if it would not be court admissible.

This may be a developing version of "one of those situations" that too often happen because there just wasn't anything concrete for the authorities to roll with, and to prevent.

This organism is already part of a successful small terrorist effort. I still can't believe the LEO could not take the complaint seriously, regardless of what the organism said. There is already a pattern. And remember, necropheliacs can only have their way after someone dies.

Stay safe,
B.

I just re-read your post. The organism and another stayed for an hour(!)? All I can recommend is to get yourself over to the TPI forum, and learn all you can about the tactics and mindset of CQB, and plan on some training as soon as you can manage to, (yes they refer people who offer ladies' training). This could turn out not to be the often imagined self defense scenario with time and distance in your favor. It could be fast, furious and very close. Even highly trained guys with guns must learn to recognise and sometime respond to close quarter attacks, when there is no time to even consider the gun until you create the distance.

Probably more than you wanted back, LibertyGal, but hey, my keyboard just said all that by itself! Nothin' I could do...
 

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A micro recorder running at all times he is around. Call the police every time so that there is a record if anything ever happens and it has to go to court.
 

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I do not know PA law, but the mere threat of violence in VA constitutes a crime. You need to go to the local PD with all persons involved and speak with a supervisor ASAP about this situation. From what little I know about this incident it is possible that stacking might also be an element to consider.
 

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Pepper spray

When I took my CCW class in Arkansas the LEO told us that in a case of a person threatening us, but without a weapon, we were within our rights to pepper spray his [email protected]@ and contact police. I am not sure how this applies in other states but it does seem it might help or force a stronger confrontation.
 

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I hope the police did ascertain his identity

and filed a report of the incident.

There's nothing like creating a paper trail of specific bad behavior by one certain individual and the group(s) which they associate. It creates one element to charge the entire group with conspiracy.

If one of his friends even does something without a specific person's knowledge, they can still be charged with a conspiracy to commit a felony. The right hand does not have to know what the left hand is doing.

In the interim, bring a date/time stamp camera with a decent zoom along with you to document this yo-yo and his friend's faces and activities. They will probably disappear like cockroaches when the lights come on, after they discover their faces are being recorded.

Thread your magazine carrier to your belt as well. Hope you don't have cause to be forced to have to use any of your ammunition.
 

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A paper trail might help to establish a pattern, thus allowing a PPO against him. if he keeps violating that, you should have a very strong case for defense if need be.
 

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Document the issues you have with this creep. Dates ,times, people who were there ,what was said ,threats made. Call the police anytime he is bothering your group. Go down to the local courthouse ,with your documentation and go before a judge and get a restraining order against this creep. Then if he hangs around the police can arrest him. Other than that keep your group prepared and alert to their surroundings at all times. Have people travel at least in pairs if at all possible.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
blacksan said:
it is possible that stacking might also be an element to consider.
Explain what you mean by "stacking"? Unless you meant "stalking"?? :confused:

The setting was a street fair, with thousands of people on the street, and a lot going on. Although WE knew he was deliberately following us, he could have claimed that he was just going to another area of the fair.

This guy is definitely your typical coward. He tried to pick a fight with one of the men earlier, but when he couldn't intimidate him, he slunk away, then approached a few of the women who were a little away from the group.

I've got good visuals but no audio yet. I have one of those mini-tape audiorecorders somewhere - maybe I'll dig that out and keep it in my pocket next time we go out. He's sure to sniff us out. I know I can get him to talk if I set the camera aside. He knew I was onto him and it irritated him, so I'm sure he'll want to let me know who's boss. :image035:

We do have a few friends on the force. I'll see if we can bring this to their attention along with a photo for future reference.

I will say this - if Creepo thinks we're just a bunch of sissy church mice, he's in for a surprise. He doesn't want to mess with a bunch of rugged men who take their responsibilities to defend their families very seriously.

LibertyGal
 

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Turn the tables: Everyone with a camera or camera cell, close on him and start snapping away. To really "go the extra mile", if he shows up again, see if someone can get pics of him/his friend/their vehicle. If he is Tweedle Dum, a loud, boisterous, greeting will take the thrill away pretty quickly. "Oh, hey, man! I didn't get to meet you, what was your name?", a church brother charging up to him, hand extended, trampling all over his bubble of personal space. 2-3 people asking him questions, rapid fire, lot's of "You are such a joker!", to his threats (if he tries them with men-I'd be surprised. If he does, call PD right there.), and back slapping will make him look and feel foolish.

Posting any pics you can get on the net, as widely as possible, would not be bad, depending on the overall "feel" you get.

Word of warning: if he is truly unbalenced, this could push him over- just keep in mind, and be prepared. Definitely give any pics/info to the PD.
 

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Not much to add LG - indeed - evidence - either audio and/or video. Add a log too maybe of sightings and behavior.

Sounds from all you have said like a total whacko - one who maybe gets his rocks off intimidating folks and like as not might be into rape too. Take that a step further with mention of sexual perversions and i do think it needs watching carefully.

Best for now - maintain good sit' awareness and stay armed! What's your AO in PA BTW? Just curious.
 

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Typically if you can get it on film and voice recorded you are in great shape for getting the LEO's to do something. Here's a thought, have several of your folks bring digital cam-corders to your meetings. Every time the creep approaches one of your group have the folks with the recorders converge on him to get both video and voice recordings. If he is dumb enough to say anything, you've got him, that should be all the police need.
 

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I think these are great ideas! Try them, but if those tactics don't work a good monkey stomping might be in order. :twak:

Just teasing...
 

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LibertyGal said:
Explain what you mean by "stacking"? Unless you meant "stalking"?? :confused:

The setting was a street fair, with thousands of people on the street, and a lot going on. Although WE knew he was deliberately following us, he could have claimed that he was just going to another area of the fair.

This guy is definitely your typical coward. He tried to pick a fight with one of the men earlier, but when he couldn't intimidate him, he slunk away, then approached a few of the women who were a little away from the group.

I've got good visuals but no audio yet. I have one of those mini-tape audiorecorders somewhere - maybe I'll dig that out and keep it in my pocket next time we go out. He's sure to sniff us out. I know I can get him to talk if I set the camera aside. He knew I was onto him and it irritated him, so I'm sure he'll want to let me know who's boss. :image035:

We do have a few friends on the force. I'll see if we can bring this to their attention along with a photo for future reference.

I will say this - if Creepo thinks we're just a bunch of sissy church mice, he's in for a surprise. He doesn't want to mess with a bunch of rugged men who take their responsibilities to defend their families very seriously.

LibertyGal

Ops, typo, I did mean stalking.

BTW, I am LEO and strongly advise you do not allow this to go by the wayside.
 

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I believe the threat to harm someone is the definition of "assault" in many states. If you can get him on tape saying this or a group of people willing to file a statement will get him arrested.

Definitely get his picture, a picture of his car & license plates, and file written complaints with the local PD. Think of it as building a case to get a whacko off the streets.
 

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If you ever talk to this creep again do it in pairs. Record it if possible. If he states that he's going to kill someone, thats a "general" threat. You can't do much about it. If he states I'm going to kill you or someone else (being specific) thats a chargable threat.. File charges, and follow it up! If theres two or more of you and you all hear a specific threat, ALL file charges.. At this point the cops should be VERY interested in this guy. If you have to get the news/paper (tv or print) involved to get the LEO's to act do it! If all else fails have a party and bring a blanket:buttkick:
 

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You already have the incident reported and an LEO involved. Make sure that incident has a report. You already have eye witnesses who heard terroristic threats and comments. Get signed, notorized statements by these eye-witnesses. You have pictures. Submit all to a police supervisor or detective now, before anything goes south. Carry a cell phone/camera/voice recorder for the next encounter, heaven forbid. A lot of good replies are here. Keep a calm vigilance, and stay safe.
 

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I agree with the suggestions posed, but have one word of caution.

Check with your state laws on audio recording before doing it. For instance in MA if you did that you'd be facing a felony! They made it illegal here to audiotape anyone under any circumstances unless BOTH parties agreed in advance! It's part of our "wiretapping statute"!
So the videocam is OK as long as it can NOT pick up his voice (due to distance)!

If this doesn't apply where you live, consider yourself lucky and proceed lawfully.
 
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