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I have been carrying the same old G27 Gen 2.5 for 22 years now. It has never let me down.
Wow, 22 years. That’s very impressive indeed!

I gotta tell you, Big Steve, if I had a gun and caliber that had served me that well for that long, there’s no way I’d be changing unless absolutely forced to. No sir, you’re definitely not a dinosaur!
 

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I went through the 9mm vs .40 back in 2010. My take these days as I have both so I can carry whichever I feel comfortable with. Currently that is a Sig P320 in 9mm but if I need more of a service pistol I can carry the SP2022 in .40. I can even go with a Sig 1911 in .45 if I want bigger but of course the capacity goes down.

In my case it is all about options. You stated that you don't want to change guns everytime you go into the woods so the .40 in whatever capacity you feel comfortable with is how you should go.
 

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I keep seeing ya'll taut the 45 as more powerful than 40 but it's not, in most common defensive loads the 40 delivers more KE at the muzzle and 25 yards than the 45 does,
Not arguing with you here, but honestly 25 yard KE isn't that important to me in a SD pistol. At 25 yards from an assailant, I'm running away like a little girl rather than relying on my firearm.

 

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Not arguing with you here, but honestly 25 yard KE isn't that important to me in a SD pistol. At 25 yards from an assailant, I'm running away like a little girl rather than relying on my firearm.

A 12" plate and consistent hits at 50 yards should be in your skill set, Murphy doesn't always believe in the so called self defense distance that people want to practice at , evil may just be a dude shooting at you across a Walmart parking lot with a rifle, if they miss that first shot at least be able to make them duck while running away screaming
 

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A 12" plate and consistent hits at 50 yards should be in your skill set, Murphy doesn't always believe in the so called self defense distance that people want to practice at , evil may just be a dude shooting at you across a Walmart parking lot with a rifle, if they miss that first shot at least be able to make them duck while running away screaming
We aren't talking about accuracy, but rather Kinetic Energy in this thread. Hitting the 12" place at 50 yards I absolutely agree with for basic CCW marksmanship purposes. Do I worry about +/- a few foot-pounds at this range? No. Because I don't intend to "engage" anyone at 50 yards. Not in my job description.
 

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To be a 'dinosaur' you need to carry a .45 1911 or S&W 2 inch M-10. Those are real dinosaurs! Both rounds over 100 years old (and so are the gun designs.)
 

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I'll use heavy clothing data despite that nobody from KY ---> FL is going to wear heavy clothing in June.

Lucky Gunner: Lets go cherry picking!!! :danceban:
40 S&W 180 HST 18.5/.72
40 S&W 180 Hydra-Shok 16.4/.60
9mm 124 +P HST 18.3/.66
9mm 147 +P HST 19.2/.60
No, HST versus HST 9mm is not equal to 40, but compared to Hydra-Shok 40 (which is good) 9mm HST aint lacking.

Federal data: Oh No, no cherrys to be found. :disappointed:
40 S&W 180 HST 12.5/.80
40 S&W 180 Gold Dot 13.2/.70
9mm 124 HST +P 13/.61
9mm 147 HST 12.5/.69
This is good data. It's funny how two people will look at this and come away with two different conclusions. A 9mm fan would say they get the same penetration with less recoil and more rounds per magazine. So then I ask, why 147 grain over 115 grain? Bigger bullet? Exactly. 180 grain bigger bullet.
 

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Dinosaur? Hardly! The .40 is a great round, only having fallen out of favor due to reduced departmental use.

I recently returned to the .40 as well, for the first time in ten years. Hell, I even load it with the ammo I carried a decade ago. Fine shooting pistol, and a competent caliber.

Not that it’s a scientific observation, but I’ve found the .40 to be far more destructive to melon-like targets than any 9mm in my collection. Not that I’d volunteer to stand in front of either.








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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I too must be a "Forty" dinosaur. I own 22's, 9's, 38's .357's, 45's as well as 40's, and love them all. My preferred EDC is still a M&P Compact in the much maligned .40 S&W. I could carry any of the aforementioned calibers, but I always gravitate toward the .40 for its balance of muzzle-energy to capacity ratio. You hear much about the 9mm being improved over the last couple decades, but that is only in terms of +P and +P+ cartridge variants. If I utilize one of the Hyper 9's to increase performance, I have also increased recoil and muzzle-flip.. Doesn't this erase one of the big selling points of 9mm over the 40 S&W?

As long as the .40 S&W cartridge is being produced, I will make it a part of my carry routine, even if that makes me a dinosaur.

Not too bad for 14-yards:


WML is a go:
 

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A 12" plate and consistent hits at 50 yards should be in your skill set, Murphy doesn't always believe in the so called self defense distance that people want to practice at , evil may just be a dude shooting at you across a Walmart parking lot with a rifle, if they miss that first shot at least be able to make them duck while running away screaming
Or, you could exibit the skills or luck of this offier who downed a crazed gunman at 104-yards while holding two horses:


You just never know what skills you may need until you need them.

To keep this relevant to the thread, this officer accomplished this with a .40 S&W handgun.
 

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I too must be a "Forty" dinosaur. I own 22's, 9's, 38's .357's, 45's as well as 40's, and love them all. My preferred EDC is still a M&P Compact in the much maligned .40 S&W. I could carry any of the aforementioned calibers, but I always gravitate toward the .40 for its balance of muzzle-energy to capacity ratio. You hear much about the 9mm being improved over the last couple decades, but that is only in terms of +P and +P+ cartridge variants. If I utilize one of the Hyper 9's to increase performance, I have also increased recoil and muzzle-flip.. Doesn't this erase one of the big selling points of 9mm or the 40 S&W?

As long as the .40 S&W cartridge is being produced, I will make it a part of my carry routine, even if that makes me a dinosaur.

Not too bad for 14-yards:


WML is a go:
Not too bad indeed! Excellent shooting!
 

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Or, you could exibit the skills or luck of this offier who downed a crazed gunman at 104-yards while holding two horses:
For some people (I aint one) that example is invalid, even if it was 4 yards. Why?
They aint a cop, so any example involving a cop doesn't apply to them.
That ain't all ... ;)
They don't work in a liquor store, so if was an employee in a liquor store, doesn't apply either.
A civilian at their local store defends themself at night, doesn't count, they don't go out at night.
 

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I am thinking about returning to .40 S&W after a one year hiatus. I carried, on and off-duty, GLOCKs G23/G27 combo for 7 years, G22/G27 combo for 18 years prior to that. And a Shield .40 off-duty too.

After fighting unreliability issues with various .40 caliber GLOCKs with WML's for several months, and intensely researching 9mm ballistics for over a year I got the Sheriff to approve personally purchased GLOCK 9mm and .45 ACP for those deputies that wished to either just carry those calibers, or if they wanted to utilize a WML on their handgun. The WML situation got so bad we decided to ban them from the .40 GLOCKs.

Our issue weapon is the G22 for uniform and G23 for plain clothed. When we upgrade we will be issuing G17/G19's, but .40 will still be authorized along with .45 ACP GLOCKs if they are personally purchased. The GLOCK 9mm's and .45s have been flawless with WML's.

I personally decided to switch to a G19/G26 9mm combo for duty. And a G30S. I shoot them well, but I shoot my G23/G27 well too. Admittedly, I do shoot the 9mm's faster, but, then again, I shoot my .40's pretty dang fast too.

Here is my dilemma. I am seriously considering returning to .40 S&W. All the data I have indicates that 9mm is probably better for duty. Better capacity, easier to shoot, easier on guns, supposedly no practical difference in terminal performance and our GLOCK 9mm's run perfectly with WML's.

BUT, I still feel like my old .40's just had better performance. And I know they do, but my data and logic tells me it's not enough to make a practical difference on the street. But I just feel like it is a significant difference.

Ever seen a deer or hog shot with a .40 and a 9mm. It's a significant difference to them, so why not humans ??

Also, I am an avid outdoorsman and I much prefer a .40 in the wilds. I have used the .40 outdoors with very good success on deer, gators, wild dogs, snakes …. . I have not used the 9mm in the outdoors but I've seen videos and the performance was found wanting.

I am tired of switching out guns when I head into the swamps, and honestly, I oftentimes just find myself there with whatever I happen to be carrying.

I thought about just going straight .45 but even my G30S is bigger and heavier than my G27, it's about the size and weight of my G23, but the G23 beats it in capacity (13/15/17 for the .40).

I reckon I just miss the warm fuzzy feeling my .40's gave me. I would still have to keep my G19 in my kit for missions that require WML's. But honestly, I rarely use WML's, except on my HD gun and my hotel gun when I travel. So, talk me into or out of switching back to my .40's !
BigSteve, i know the struggle, our dept. decided to switch to 9mm, I assume just because everyone else was, I was tasked with getting bids, most of our officers wanted to switch to Sig but the Chief was against that since the dept. provides the duty holster and off-duty holsters also. myself and the firearms instructor are also Glock Armorers so he said we had to stay with Glock, I ordered a 19 and 17 for the Officers to shoot and decide which one they wanted to carry.
The problem I am seeing with some of the guys is they actually shoot the .40 better at 25 yards than they do the 9mm, seems weird but they consistently hit center mass with the .40 and are shooting left with the 9mm, hand them the .40 again and they put them right in the center.
One of the other problems we were having is that the Gen5 was not fitting in some of the Safariland holsters, which was one reason to stay with Glock, so sounds like we might have buy holsters anyway. Not a problem for those of us that our going to carry RDS equipped guns since we have to supply our own holster.
We carry WML (tlr-1) on our Glock 22's but not the 23's and we actually only had one 23 ever have any issues with the wml, I put a couple thousand rounds thru a 23 with the tlr-1 on it and could not get it hiccup.
We are supposed to get our new firearms in July and I guess we will see how it goes, at least you have a choice in caliber we only get to choose whether we want a 19 or 17, at least they are m.o.s and most of us will be adding RDS to it. I have my RMR, suppressor sights, mounting plate and am already using my safariland rds holster. Good luck with what ever you decide.
 

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BigSteve, i know the struggle, our dept. decided to switch to 9mm, I assume just because everyone else was, I was tasked with getting bids, most of our officers wanted to switch to Sig but the Chief was against that since the dept. provides the duty holster and off-duty holsters also. myself and the firearms instructor are also Glock Armorers so he said we had to stay with Glock, I ordered a 19 and 17 for the Officers to shoot and decide which one they wanted to carry.
The problem I am seeing with some of the guys is they actually shoot the .40 better at 25 yards than they do the 9mm, seems weird but they consistently hit center mass with the .40 and are shooting left with the 9mm, hand them the .40 again and they put them right in the center.
One of the other problems we were having is that the Gen5 was not fitting in some of the Safariland holsters, which was one reason to stay with Glock, so sounds like we might have buy holsters anyway. Not a problem for those of us that our going to carry RDS equipped guns since we have to supply our own holster.
We carry WML (tlr-1) on our Glock 22's but not the 23's and we actually only had one 23 ever have any issues with the wml, I put a couple thousand rounds thru a 23 with the tlr-1 on it and could not get it hiccup.
We are supposed to get our new firearms in July and I guess we will see how it goes, at least you have a choice in caliber we only get to choose whether we want a 19 or 17, at least they are m.o.s and most of us will be adding RDS to it. I have my RMR, suppressor sights, mounting plate and am already using my safariland rds holster. Good luck with what ever you decide.
Aquaman, y'all are lucky, or maybe we just got a bad batch, but of the 100 or so gun-toters we have I have seen or seen documented about 20% of our GLOCK .40 calibers (the vast majority G22's with a few G23's) malfunction with the WML's. Not to mention my issued G23 and a personal G23, both Gen 4's, that simply hated a WML. Both of those, otherwise flawless G23 Gen 4's, choked repeatedly with WML's. I tried several different WML's with no success. It may have something to do with the fact that we use 165 gr HST's, maybe 180's fare better. Before we had Gen 4's we used Gen 2's. Gen 2's have no rail which meant no WML's. We had almost zero malfunctions back then.

I too am a GLOCK armorer. And a policy maker. But I still have to have the Sheriff's final say-so. If I could get him to switch to maybe S&W M&P's, I'd be happy to stay with .40's, but we too are geared up for GLOCKs with parts, holsters, mag pouches, mags, armorers ….. . So the 9mm GLOCKs are plug and play, but the .45 ACP GLOCK guys have to supply their own gear, which I was more than happy to do for myself.
 
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I carry several different pistols in rotation, but the one that I carry most is the G27, because of size, weight and knock down power. If I could only have one gun to my name, it would be my G23.
 

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I don't know if this helps, but it's one of the few studies based on actual gunfights. I can see how your observations about .40 S&W plays out in terms of one-stop-shot, for example, which is 11% more effective (.40 S&W v. 9mm). That's nothing to sneeze at. Personally I am a big fan of .357 SIG. It's lighter bullets have a lot of muzzle blast but less recoil and are more powerful than .40 or .45 on average (526 ft. lbs. vs 450 ft. lbs. for both respectively). There aren't huge differences until you get to shotguns and rifles, but that's mostly in terms of lethality. As far as stopping power (incapacitation) and overall well-roundedness, .357 SIG is hard to beat.

332357

 

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Although I do carry 9mm often, but regardless of gel and paper you will see a significant difference in performance on large game. Same with the .45 and 357Sig compared to the 9mm. So I believe the 9mm is good enough, but I’ve shot enough large game with service calibers to understand there is a difference in performance.
Will it be enough to make a difference, it can.
My top pick for SD is the 357Sig shooting 125grn HSTs.
 

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I believe 40 is a good round. But Glocks in 40 caliber are not for me. My G22 and G23 were jam o matics for me. This without mounted light. I literally can not jam my G19 or G17 or G26. The G27 worked for me with the nine round mags but not the longer mags, that is until the locking block and trigger pin broke.

Stronger mag springs helped for the G23 and G22 but did not cure the jamming problem. As others have mentioned confidence is all important. So FOR ME no Glocks in 40 caliber.
 
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