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Discussion Starter #1
One of my two plans for practice drills to pay more attention to this year is shooting from close retention - then too will be much more shooting on the move.

Thinking of the retention aspect, it occurs to me that a useful accessory could be what is in effect a pattern board/target, as we might use for shotguns.

A std 37 would probably do but I want to stretch range a bit and so a 4' x 4' sheet with a center mark seems like it might be useful. Mainly because if grip, general technique etc is a bit sloppy, I want to see where I hit, and I expect shots to vere laterally just as much as in elevation.

In fact this could also be useful for on-the-move tho of course, ''cheating'' somewhat because bigger than man size.

Prime reason is - registering wide hits - nothing more frustrating that knowing you have missed but no idea where! Once things zoned in enough to be consistent then switch back to 37's or similar.
 

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jarhead79 said:
Sorry to be a dummy, but what's "retention shooting"???
Holding the pistol close to your body to "retain" posession in a scuffle...you want to prevent the bad guy from grabbing your weapon while still allowing yourself the opportunity to use it.
 

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Team American said:
Holding the pistol close to your body to "retain" posession in a scuffle...you want to prevent the bad guy from grabbing your weapon while still allowing yourself the opportunity to use it.
Ha, you BG is naked. I have a Delta target that I do similar drills on. I found firing from retention at diatance , usually my elevation is off more than lft-rt.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Jar - the purpose of retention is keeping gun in so tight to self that a grab is made way more difficult, much as TA mentions.

It is, par excellence, for very close quarters but, if time is down to the micro second with a draw then the first opportunity to get off a shot is what I might for convenience call stage #1 retention.

That is where gun is free of the leather and the strong hand has brought it up to a horizontal position close to body, pretty much as we see in the pic. The time to get from here to both arms out for a first shot is finite and possibly significant thus useful to be able to make a useful shot or two from here.

What I might call stage#2 retention is when we have a two handed grip on the gun but again keep it tight to body - this time central - from which position arms can be brought up and fwd for a rapid aquisition of a sighted shot. This retention is somewhat more a ''ready'' position and something we might use to cover someone, but that aside again, useful to be able to get hits from here.

This is all about muscle memory really, and because misses can be quite wide in elevation or windage, this is why I considered a huge target to better register the bad misses.
 

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rocky said:
Ha, you BG is naked.
He also has a tummy ache :rofl:

We have to be prepared for anything...even being attacked by a naked, pale, zombie-lookin' dummy with no arms :image035:

Seriously, firing from this position with my USP 40 compact, recoil is suprisingly sharp...wrist and elbow absorb it all, plus the muzzle blast is felt on the face a whole lot more!
 

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P95Carry said:
What I might call stage#2 retention is when we have a two handed grip on the gun but again keep it tight to body - this time central - from which position arms can be brought up and fwd for a rapid aquisition of a sighted shot. This retention is somewhat more a ''ready'' position and something we might use to cover someone, but that aside again, useful to be able to get hits from here.
Chris, there is a good photo showing this position on mzmtg's thread in this forum titled "A fine Sunday afternoon"....in the first photo, he is holding two-handed close to the body, and in the second photo, pistol is extended along the sight line. Shots can be fired from anywhere in this hold.:yup:
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thx Rick - yes remember that one :smile:
 

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Team American said:
Chris, there is a good photo showing this position on mzmtg's thread in this forum titled "A fine Sunday afternoon"....in the first photo, he is holding two-handed close to the body, and in the second photo, pistol is extended along the sight line. Shots can be fired from anywhere in this hold.:yup:
I am going to work more on shooting from close to the body after that class. I did a couple of drills at contact with the target, like the pic posted above.

I need to work on shots varying from the moment the support hand hits the gun all the way out to full extension...and back.
 

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I refer to the position show as the '2' and the hands meeting on centerline position as '3'. It's a really super-secret code for describing my drawstroke.:image035: Count '1' is establishing grip in the holster and '4' is extended at eye level.

By relating the various shooting positions directly to drawstroke, I find it easier to get people to think about shooting throughout drawstroke and not get stuck on the idea of rigid, stacotto, positions that you have to attain.
 

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I try to hold the weapon high to my right upper chest, both hands on the gun, barrel slightly canted to the right. This directs the extracting case away from my face. I keep a two hand grip on the weapon in case the BG tries a grab, in which case it's a lot simpler to merely twist the torso in the opposite direction from the grab. This has the added benefit of projecting one of my elbows into the BG for an elbow "strike."

Be aware the putting your muzzle against the skin of a BG will likely have two effects: First, it will cause the flesh to avulse from the muzzle blast and it will tend to look like you used a 12 ga at point blank range. The downside to this happy vision is that the flesh may actually get enmeshed in the gun's action and cause a jam. Very messy. I got this little tidbit of info from Mas Ayoob, and I can't verify any actual occurences of this happening, but it seems logical to me and it's something to think about.
 

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We practice retention shooting here---BUT---we ALWAYS have a buddy standing directly in back of us that does nothing but monitor the direction of the muzzle. The shooters safety man keeps his hand on your back at all times. It seems to be real easy to unintentionally cross in front of your muzzle with your hand/arm,thigh,or even shoulder. We practice "what to do"drills with a red gun quite a bit. This,realizing that if in dire starits you would go ahead and shoot the BG. -------
 

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Idpa?

RSSZ said:
We practice retention shooting here---BUT---we ALWAYS have a buddy standing directly in back of us that does nothing but monitor the direction of the muzzle. The shooters safety man keeps his hand on your back at all times. It seems to be real easy to unintentionally cross in front of your muzzle with your hand/arm,thigh,or even shoulder. We practice "what to do"drills with a red gun quite a bit. This,realizing that if in dire straits you would go ahead and shoot the BG. -------
Interesting. We do retention scenarios (not drills per se) wherein the scene might be your elevator opens in the sub floor of the parking garage and the BG is right there! He jams the door open and you have to solve the problem. The target stand will be situated about two feet from the shooter. There will be a box spray painted on the ground to simulate the elevator. Standing behind the shooter is the score keeper to watch for procedurals and record the final score, the S.O. watches the safety situation, but is specifically forbidden to touch the shooter unless it is to freeze him for a safety issue. Is that the case for your club? Does your club have a website? Mine is: http://www.tssa.net and there is a gallery on site.
 

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Ex, We are not a club per se. We are just some retired military guys that get together twice a week for some REAL LIFE training. Most of us are over 50(as I am)but we train pretty hard. We still have our "roll-o-dex" full of names that we can use for info purposes and support also. We want to be as street savy as possible. We are not the "Rambo" type but we train to win. One of our mutual friends is a retired SAS officer and we have adopted his creedo. We all truly believe.... "WHO DARES WINS". ---------
 

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To me,retention type shooting is all about using a bullet that you feel will not overpenetrate. I am a short bbl .45ACP shooter/CCer. I would much rather carry a bullet that would (probably)under penetrate than over penetrate.(although,I'm not sure that you would have to be too concerned about that with a .45ACP,especially a 3" bbl'ed weapon) The "magic" penetration depth's that have been thrown out on this and other forums don't really concern me much. It's not that I would dispute them. I just don't know if it really matters if the BG that I'm fighting gets hit 2 or 3 times and my bullet only penetrates to a depth of 8or9 inches vs a foot. I understand that I might have to hit him through the bicep when he is turned sideways to me....BUT....where will the other 2 or 3(or more) bullets go? I understand that this will not be consistant with some of your beliefs,but that is my "take" on it. --------
 

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i have a question/observation from RSSZ's post.

i am kinda new to the 'penetration/over penetration' aspects so allow me a lil room here please.
8-10 inches seems relatively low to me. assuming a round strikes a bone vs. simple flesh things will vary greatly (i figger) but i'm reasonably thick from years of weightlifting but not 12" thick. maybe i am, i never measured but will a 45 slow down that much in flesh?
(JHP assumed not hardball)
maybe i need to research more about penetration of rounds and the way a bullet acts in flesh & bone.
i too carry predominantly a 3" 45 and am not convinced that velocities vary that much from a 3" to a 5" model. especially at point blank range.

not intending to throw stones just looking at the great POWER of a 45 defensive round it seems it'd punch thru a lotta body.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Bone is always going to be a problem - the sternum can IMO slow a bullet dramatically - in particular the upper part which is bony as against xyphisternum at lowest part.

Equally ribs, where bony can certainly slow and also deflect - the central part either side of sternum is cartilage and will not have so much effect.

Re penetration from side shots - a solid hit on the humerous or even shoulder joint itself will take up a lot of energy and probably often compromize rib cage penetration.

The ''ideal'' penetration is -''enough but not too much'' - so we have no follow thru and thus dangers beyond target. This ideal tho is not feasable and so on balance we need adequate average penetration with, we hope, enough HP bullet upset to actually do damage once ''inside'' - and stop there.

It will not only be the energy that matters per se but also the particular ballistic coefficient - in theory at least for a given energy, increased cross-sectional area will absorb energy quicker even if hole is larger! This is perhaps why 9mm FMJ has a bad rep' for over penetration.

The bottom line is obviously - effects on vital structures and as some medics will state - they cannot tell easily between a 9mm hole and a 45 hole!

In theory to me - penetration need not be thru and thru - or totally deep - the structures we need to affect are much more ''mid cavity'' anyways. I would rather feel I had a round that will do what is needed if it hits right and stay in there - and that would hopefully see some expansion tho clothing will almost always influence that, as well as just velocity vs bullet characteristics.

Whole thing is a huge field - not to mention can'o'worms! :wink:
 

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I figure if it goes 12" +or -in ballistic gelatin then thats close enough since that will help some what with tougher muscle and possibly bone ..
 

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Discussion Starter #19
One thing that keeps cropping up - re the mythical ''one shot stop'' - is that big holes and blood loss matter. Well they do of course but in so many cases, even a heart or aorta shot - will still leave a BG vital seconds in which to keep shooting - possibly. Sure he may well be guaranteed to stop and expire but - that ''window of opportunity'' for continued attack is pretty worrysome.

The actual success in hitting a CNS area - and achieving shut-down is slim but - one reason why multiple shots are almost certainly likely to be needed is their potential effect as singularities and then cumulatively - not so much on the internals but on the BG himself - unless doped (we have been discussing that).

I think one thing we should all be mindful of is, that the handgun is not par excellence a ''stopper'' in many cases - not like a HV rifle. Thus the probablility of multiple hits being needed is high. The ''bone aspect'' again here is significant IMO.
 

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Indeed,the slower than grass growin' pistol bullets that are used do not have alot of hydrastatic shock. Especially the heavy ones outta the short bbl weapons. But think about this. What's a bullet that penetrates to only 9 or 10 inches gonna come in contact with. How deep are the vital organs? Yeah,you hit a big ol' guy on the sternum and it probably wont make it through to break his back. SO ! Talking high velocity rifles,in the terminal velocity end of it, there is a thing that occurs called secondary missles. Anything that a bullet entering the body comes in contact with will be propeled at the same velocity as the bullet. Granted,not for any substantial duration. But all these pieces of bones(say sternum)that are broken off by the bullet will become secondary missles. I haven't dressed any humans,but I have, allot of game animals. From moose and bear,down to squirrels. All these animals have definate signs of secondary missle damage. Sometimes far worse that the damage that the bullet does. I dressed a deer one time that was shot with a .22-250. The "sport" shot the deer while it was looking right at him. The bullet completely fragmented(blew up) on the sternum.....BUT.....fragments of bone completely shredded both lungs and the heart. Their again,granted this was a hyper velocity bullet but I feel that even a pistol bullet will do this to a lesser degree in a human body. Whatdaya think ?? -------
 
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