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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The Clerk is “open carrying” and that’s why it’s put here.
After watching this the first time, my initial thought was that not putting a round thru the perps skull was a mistake. But then after considering the background of the clerk and thinking to myself how I might react were I him, I don’t think he truly felt as if he were in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm in that exact moment when he (the clerk/store owner) executed the draw. In that case, it’s possible and perhaps probable that the clerk could be charged with manslaughter had he done so (shoot). What would YOU DO in these circumstances?
 

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Tough call. The scenario in the video could have gone south in a couple of ways by not immediately shooting the perp.
The perp could have taken a step back and fired, could have grabbed the clerks pistol as it was that close to his body. Now you are in a physical fight for your life with both guns drawn.
I think that if someone has drawn their firearm and is in the process of aiming it at me that is all I need to know to discharge my firearm.
Both men were fortunate to still be alive. I would have fired my pistol.
 

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If you are going to a gun grab, actually grab the gun. If you are going to draw against the drop, shooting is probably a plan. If you aren't going to shoot, don't put your gun out there where it is subject to a gun grab.

The entire incident has a staged look about it, but what do I know? Sometimes, the truth is stranger than fiction.
 

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Perp could have still sent a round down range. Justified to open fire instantly. BG is still a danger.

Narratore suggests the finger off the trigger, yet then states that the perp could also go for a gun grab himself. Nope, finger on trigger for me. BG grabs, gun goes off, BG's problem. BG takes that step back to try to again bring his firearm up? Trigger pull. Again, BG's problem.
 

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I would loved to hear the audio. I bet the BG had to change his shorts!
 
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Well, about all I know for sure is that I would not have handled it like the clerk did. Make no mistake, I’m not bad mouthing the clerk or his actions. But I’m not him, with his life background, etc.

I expect that the clerk understood full well the “harsh realities of life”, and that he could have ended up dead. But would rather take that small chance and give the BG a chance to walk away. Once again, his call.

The idea of letting the BG walk away with his gun I find totally nuts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
If I remember the story behind this one right, the clerk is a Vietnam combat veteran. His situational awareness and restraint was impressive. Probably not the first time he’s had a gun pointed at him.
You’re spot on correct. Two tours and he retired after 30 years then went on to be a Correctional Officer. Yup, he’s had PLENTY of muzzles in his direction.
 

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I had many times in my LEO career where I would have been totally justified in taking a life. In the end, it's each man's/woman's sole decision in the moment, I would never "second guess" another's life/death decision as long as they live to tell it. JMHO
 

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If I have to shoot, I won't hesitate. But just because I can legally shoot, doesn't mean I have to. I will avoid shooting if I can. What I would have done in that situation, I can't say. I wasn't there, I didn't see the guy's eyes, etc. I also will not second guess someone who took quick action and it turned out OK.

A thought I had though that is another possibility to some of the hypotheticals above and I am not saying this is likely, just possible, is that if the clerk shot the guy, there is no guarantee one or two shots would take him down. From what I understand, getting shot causes some people to give up, but it causes others to fight harder. Shooting him may have caused him to step back, continue his draw and start shooting. Then you have two guys throwing rounds at each other at close range. If you can end things without shots fired, that is optimal in my book.
 

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If I have to shoot, I won't hesitate. But just because I can legally shoot, doesn't mean I have to. I will avoid shooting if I can. What I would have done in that situation, I can't say. I wasn't there, I didn't see the guy's eyes, etc. I also will not second guess someone who took quick action and it turned out OK.
There is the bottom line for me on all these detailed analyses and commentary. The best I ever hope for from watching them are factors to consider in my mental rehearsals.
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
If I have to shoot, I won't hesitate. But just because I can legally shoot, doesn't mean I have to. I will avoid shooting if I can. What I would have done in that situation, I can't say. I wasn't there, I didn't see the guy's eyes, etc. I also will not second guess someone who took quick action and it turned out OK.

A thought I had though that is another possibility to some of the hypotheticals above and I am not saying this is likely, just possible, is that if the clerk shot the guy, there is no guarantee one or two shots would take him down. From what I understand, getting shot causes some people to give up, but it causes others to fight harder. Shooting him may have caused him to step back, continue his draw and start shooting. Then you have two guys throwing rounds at each other at close range. If you can end things without shots fired, that is optimal in my book.
Well, I could see that as a valid point in the case of a Center of Mass or an extremity impact. But look at the position of the defender’s initial presentation of his own gun. Had the trigger been pulled THEN, it’s clearly a Neural Net (classic lights out/instant death shot) impact. Nobody steps back and continues the fight after that one.
 

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What would I have done? Well, if I don't absolutely have to pull a trigger, I ain't a gonna. What he did worked, and that's all that counts. He got to go home to his family and so did the BG.
 

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Well, I could see that as a valid point in the case of a Center of Mass or an extremity impact. But look at the position of the defender’s initial presentation of his own gun. Had the trigger been pulled THEN, it’s clearly a Neural Net (classic lights out/instant death shot) impact. Nobody steps back and continues the fight after that one.
Read up on Sgt. Tim Gramins' shootout in Skokie. Hit the guy 16 times at fairly close range with .45 ACP, several in supposed "death shot" spots. The guy kept going and kept shooting back until that 16th shot. Gramins was a master shooting instructor. And that's if you get the hits. There have been multiple shootouts at "bad breath range" where whole mags were expended and nobody even got hit.

As I'm sure you know, once shooting starts, you never know. Bullets enter bodies, get deflected in weird ways, you never know. What you do know is that you will never lose a fight you don't get into.
 

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I would have just exacly what the clerk did, except I would have shot him in the face. Pull a gun on me with malicious intent? BYE....
That's the thing. You let them walk out, especially with their weapon, and now you're going to be looking over your shoulder in case they decide to get back at you for disrespecting them. Maybe they won't. But maybe they will.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Read up on Sgt. Tim Gramins' shootout in Skokie. Hit the guy 16 times at fairly close range with .45 ACP, several in supposed "death shot" spots. The guy kept going and kept shooting back until that 16th shot. Gramins was a master shooting instructor. And that's if you get the hits. There have been multiple shootouts at "bad breath range" where whole mags were expended and nobody even got hit.

As I'm sure you know, once shooting starts, you never know. Bullets enter bodies, get deflected in weird ways, you never know. What you do know is that you will never lose a fight you don't get into.
Having had a few discussions with Docs who do autopsies, I know absolutely that any shot that cuts into the neural net (basically from the base of the nose on the upper lip up to the upper edge of the forehead) is a death shot, period. That net goes 360 degrees around the skull. Police snipers (I’ve chatted with a few of them, as well as their military counterparts, a time or two) train because of hostage situations, to snap that neural net. They usually aim for between the eyes (or thru one), or about one centimeter below either earlobe or if taking the shot from behind, right at the base of the skull. The ultimate target in each case is to cut the Medulla so…. LIGHTS OUUUUT.

Military snipers train for Center of Mass, which in most cases doesn’t make a helluva big difference when the caliber might be .338 LaPua or .50 BMG. But police snipers have to think of ricochet issues or the Thru-N-Thru (TNT) kill shot that might harm an innocent behind the target. That’s usually a problem dealt with by the specific situation paired with the specific load for that situation. But the LEO community tends to stay with the .308 Winchester loading. Usually. From what I’ve gleaned over 40 years of interactions.
 
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