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That's the thing. You let them walk out, especially with their weapon, and now you're going to be looking over your shoulder in case they decide to get back at you for disrespecting them. Maybe they won't. But maybe they will.
A hole in his forehead reduces the anxiety of that ever happening.
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Having had a few discussions with Docs who do autopsies, I know absolutely that any shot that cuts into the neural net (basically from the base of the nose on the upper lip up to the upper edge of the forehead) is a death shot, period. That net goes 360 degrees around the skull. Police snipers (I’ve chatted with a few of them, as well as their military counterparts, a time or two) train because of hostage situations, to snap that neural net. They usually aim for between the eyes (or thru one), or about one centimeter below either earlobe or if taking the shot from behind, right at the base of the skull. Military snipers train for Center of Mass, which in most cases doesn’t make a helluva big difference when the caliber might be .338 LaPua or .50 BMG. But police snipers have to think of ricochet issues or the Thru-N-Thru (TNT) kill shot that might harm an innocent behind the target. That’s usually a problem dealt with by the specific situation paired with the specific load for that situation. But the LEO community tends to stay with the .308 Winchester loading. Usually. From what I’ve gleaned over 40 years of interactions.
Rifles are a whole other ballgame.
 

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A hole in his forehead reduces the anxiety of that ever happening.
Do you know that major calibers have gotten solid hits on skulls and not penetrated? It happens. Bottom line is if you can avoid shooting and stay safe, like the guy in the OP did, you will have a better day and probably a better life.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Rifles are a whole other ballgame.
Maybe. But at contact range where muzzle blast also figures into the complex equation of making sure aggression is stopped, caliber and effective penetration are still important.
 
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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Do you know that major calibers have gotten solid hits on skulls and not penetrated? It happens. Bottom line is if you can avoid shooting and stay safe, like the guy in the OP did, you will have a better day and probably a better life.
I’d rather go with the percentages rather than the once in a blue moon occurrence. I’m not by any means second guessing the defender. As many have noted he was able to go home that night unscathed. That’s all that counts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Do you know that major calibers have gotten solid hits on skulls and not penetrated? It happens. Bottom line is if you can avoid shooting and stay safe, like the guy in the OP did, you will have a better day and probably a better life.
Your response reminds me of seeing the rookie cops who go out and buy ball caps with Kevlar linings. Sure, it might not allow actual projectile penetration but the impact will be equivalent to getting smacked in the forehead with a sledge hammer. Definitely a recipe for scrambled brains!

I would also submit that having a forehead ventilated with several such shots rather than just a single hole. I’d like to see the number of instances where multiple shots to the forehead by a caliber 9mm or higher has resulted in a Failure to Stop scenario that poses a valid threat.
 

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I’d rather go with the percentages rather than the once in a blue moon occurrence. I’m not by any means second guessing the defender. As many have noted he was able to go home that night unscathed. That’s all that counts.
Good. Not getting in a gunfight is always 100% effective.
 

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Your response reminds me of seeing the rookie cops who go out and buy ball caps with Kevlar linings. Sure, it might not allow actual projectile penetration but the impact will be equivalent to getting smacked in the forehead with a sledge hammer. Definitely a recipe for scrambled brains!
In the Skokie incident, the officer got two head hits on the perp at close range. It took a third headshot to stop the guy. A handgun doesn't make you invincible. I can't get over how many people here seem just itching to shoot someone whether it is necessary or not. The combat experienced guy in the OP showed it was not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Good. Not getting in a gunfight is always 100% effective.
OTOH, you always miss 100% of the shots you don’t take. Just saying.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
In the Skokie incident, the officer got two head hits on the perp at close range. It took a third headshot to stop the guy. A handgun doesn't make you invincible. I can't get over how many people here seem just itching to shoot someone whether it is necessary or not. The combat experienced guy in the OP showed it was not.
The term “Head Shot” is void for vagueness. A shattered jaw or cheekbone is technically a “head shot,” but it’s not definitive. I want to know exactly where those shots impacted as well as the caliber and type of bullet used.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Not getting in a gunfight is always 100% effective.
What does THAT mean? Not getting into a gunfight could also be 100% LETHAL…., for you.
 

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The term “Head Shot” is void for vagueness. A shattered jaw or cheekbone is technically a “head shot,” but it’s not definitive. I want to know exactly where those shots impacted as well as the caliber and type of bullet used.
Well if you are that surgically precise under pressure, you go for it. Even if I were, I would try not to if I could.
 

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What does THAT mean? Not getting into a gunfight could also be 100% LETHAL…., for you.
No, that would mean you did get in a gunfight, but you didn't win. Shots fired = gunfight. I am talking about getting out of a situation without anyone shooting any one. Why on Earth do people here think that is a bad idea, and killing someone is the preferred path?

It sounds to me like there are people here that are disappointed the guy didn't shoot. And that they would have welcomed the opportunity. This, when he came out of it fine without taking a life!
 

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People have poo pood the .410 revolvers that are out there for various reasons. I've always thought that a .410 load of bb's at contact distance into the face would tend to discourage at the least, most attackers, even if it didn't prove fatal. At the least it should permanently alter one's vision and sense of smell. Or of course a 250gr Colt .45 load.
 

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I'm all for shooting the narrator just to shut him up.


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And if I hear the story of the guy being shot 16 times and not stopping one more time--like that's what always happens with a .45 ACP--I'm gonna puke. Why the clerk did not shoot and then let this armed person simply walk away escapes my mind.
 
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No doubt in my mind, I'd have pulled the trigger but then again I've only faced the muzzle of a gun four times, nowhere near the experience and confidence this gentleman has.
I disagree that any court would find that his life was not on the line, just because you have combat experience doesn't exclude you from using deadly force in self defense. Too many things could have gone wrong for him.
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 · (Edited)
No, that would mean you did get in a gunfight, but you didn't win. Shots fired = gunfight. I am talking about getting out of a situation without anyone shooting any one. Why on Earth do people here think that is a bad idea, and killing someone is the preferred path?

It sounds to me like there are people here that are disappointed the guy didn't shoot. And that they would have welcomed the opportunity. This, when he came out of it fine without taking a life!
Well… you’re right. I did mention as the OP, that I initially was a bit incredulous that the defender didn’t shoot given the external circumstances. But on a couple of re-reads, I reassessed that opinion because based on the guy’s personal history, training and experience, he might not have believed that he was in danger just because he’d encountered a hostile individual who also “muzzled” him. Especially once he had his own instrument of hostilities in hand. So given his own background, if he didn’t feel in “imminent danger of death or great bodily harm” (the baseline in common law that could render a shooting justified) then to shoot could have been interpreted by a savvy prosecutor as an act of aggression rather than one of defense.

There’s a lot of ex military folks here. Probably a fair bit of training in the combat arms, I was infantry myself. Never saw combat, I served active duty from 1980-84 and reserves (including a year in the Florida Guard) from ‘84-‘94. I still had a bunch of friends get killed in the limited combat operations of that period and a bunch more in training accidents.

The point is, infantry isn’t trained to “restrain, deter or arrest.” I’ve gotten much more mellow over the decades. Especially as a public school educator. My students thought I was the coolest teacher in school. Under their life circumstances I treated them exactly as I treated my troops and I was truthful when I told them that had they met me when I was a serving officer, they wouldn’t have recognized me. There was no fun in my work life. Beyond the circumstantial in specific situations like pranking each other’s platoons in the field. Etc. But we were training for WW3 and toe to toe combat with the USSR. I was real dedicated about my training and in making sure my troops were even better. That meant being expert at specific focused narrowly applied violence. Using a wide variety of applications and techniques. Not just grunt work, either. It was important to be able to integrate seamlessly into the “Combined Arms Battle Space.” Using artillery, mortars, air assets, and armor as necessary.
 
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I'm all for shooting the narrator just to shut him up.


View attachment 360148

And if I hear the story of the guy being shot 16 times and not stopping one more time--like that's what always happens with a .45 ACP--I'm gonna puke. Why the clerk did not shoot and then let this armed person simply walk away escapes my mind.
Well you might as well put me on ignore because I will bring it up again. Then I can comment on your posts behind your back. We both win!

You must be one of those fantasists who think that if someone is hit in the finger with a .45, it spins him around in the air and he drops dead. And he loses his immortal soul. It ain't true. BTW, I am a big .45 fan too and I shoot my 1911 well. But I am realistic about it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Well you might as well put me on ignore because I will bring it up again. Then I can comment on your posts behind your back. We both win!

You must be one of those fantasists who think that if someone is hit in the finger with a .45, it spins him around in the air and he drops dead. And he loses his immortal soul. It ain't true. BTW, I am a big .45 fan too and I shoot my 1911 well. But I am realistic about it.
I’m not in fact. I’m old enough and experienced enough to know better. I ain’t no kid. A kill shot in the neural net is as effective with a .22LR as with a 10mm. Although the 10mm will be marginally more effective if it’s used to get through the skull itself.

When General Dozier was kidnapped by a terrorist group in Italy, I was serving on the 9th HTLD General Staff as a Plans and Operations Officer in the G-4 (Logistics and Supply). Because of the extremely sensitive nature of the Division’s mission, we were thought to be a high priority target, both for any terror groups and for the communists. So on orders of the Pentagon we had specific briefings by both the CIA for spotting the Russians in the various bars in Tacoma and Seattle. We had identified at least four Trawlers off the coast of Washington State (9th ID/HTLD for High Technology Light Division was located at Fort Lewis, WA) the Trawlers were almost certainly for interception of radio communications.

The bars presented the Honey Trap and general “loose lips to sink ships” spurred by strong drink opportunities. That was all CIA and DIA responsibilities to brief. But we on the General Staff had a couple of specialists from MOSSAD come into our conference room for briefings.

Most all of their teams were former IWI Infantry or Special Forces. Some tankers, too. As such, when grunts the world over get to talking, it’s a good bet that Guns will be among the prime topics. After women, of course. Those guys told us they train to cap terrorists with .22 Berettas and suppressors. Trained to take them with the Cranio-Ocular shot. Thru the eyeball and always two shots in that location. So it’s obvious that the .22LR is completely effective in killing… as long as the neural net is clipped.

But, since you were crass enough not to really read my posts AND to talk about me behind my back with glee, I might add, I will put you on ignore. It’s just not worth raising my blood pressure to defend against stupidity.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
Well if you are that surgically precise under pressure, you go for it. Even if I were, I would try not to if I could.
I train that way. Failure to stop drills are exactly that. And in the thread scenario, the range to target was CONTACT distance. It’d have been hard to MISS. But maybe you could pull it off, I dunno.
 
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