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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We are all looking for the best bullet to carry in our hand guns and rifles. It seems to be a never ending battle as to which round is better, which caliber is better and so on. I came across this article and thought I would share it here. IMO the author makes some very good points in regards to incapacitation and lethality. Based on the article it would appear that the fight in the BG really does come into play.

Firearm Stopping Power - Fact, Fiction and Anecdotes
 

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These discussions are getting a bit silly.

Ask any deer hunter about stopping power.
Simple physics dictate the result. M x V + (s^2) S= surface area.

The type of weapon that would deliver REAL stopping power is not available to most American Citizens. (i.e) RPG, 50 cal full auto etc...
 

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I shot a deer with a .338 lapua. Stopping power of that rifle round was apparent. I have seen several autopsies done. Unbelievable a head shot at close range with a .22 is most times devastating. It seems it has enough power at close range,straight on,to enter the skull but not enough to get out. So it bounces around.
 

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Good read. No magic bullet no magic caliber.

The tactical deployment of the handgun is half the battle. Predators, man or beast have one overriding strategy, that is to attack the easiest target of opportunity.

Situation awareness revokes the target of opportunity part. A armed man or woman removes the easy part.
 

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The only conclusion I get from caliber wars is "carry lots of ammo". Odds are one or two shots from any handgun aren't going to do the trick. Might as well have lots of shots and maybe even a BUG waiting in the rafters.
 

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These discussions are getting a bit silly.

Ask any deer hunter about stopping power.
Simple physics dictate the result. M x V + (s^2) S= surface area...
Sorry, but the "simple physics" pseudo-equation you cited has nothing to do with physics.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
These discussions are getting a bit silly.

Ask any deer hunter about stopping power.
Simple physics dictate the result. M x V + (s^2) S= surface area.

The type of weapon that would deliver REAL stopping power is not available to most American Citizens. (i.e) RPG, 50 cal full auto etc...
With all the new people coming around and asking questions about the best bullet, the best caliber, its nice to offer them something other than conjecture...
 

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Sorry not laying down on a mens room floor will take my chances standing
My thoughts exactly! To prone out on a bathroom floor were my mother told me there were Ga-Zillion germ and disease! Heck I was stand on the toilets, however I've been told that the crabs can jump that high so what the use! :blink:

However the idea to minimize your cross-section is the idea, but how many of use will know when the BGs are coming after us!
 

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Soap and water work on germs, not so much on bullet holes. As you pointed out though bad guys are not into RSVP.
 

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This is a good article, but I grit my teeth whenever I see this error:

'“Knock-down” power is a term also sometimes used to describe a firearm’s capacity to incapacitate an attacker. But, we know that no firearm has literal “knock down” power. Given Newton’s Law about “equal and opposite reaction”, if a firearm had power enough to knock someone down, discharging it would generate a recoil which would knock down the person firing it.'

This is absolutely false. Equal and opposite reaction applies to FORCE, not ENERGY. Energy is force applied over a distance, and because the bullet travels further forward through the barrel than the gun travels backwards while the bullet is in the barrel, vastly more kinetic energy is imparted to the bullet than to the gun, even though both see the same forces in opposite directions.

A 12-gauge slug has kinetic energy roughly equivalent to a 10-pound bowling ball traveling at 85 miles per hour. Whether a slug knocks someone down has to do with how that energy is used when it hits them, but it definitely has ENOUGH energy to do it.
 
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Maxwell97 is exactly correct. The period of the applied force is also totally different, as the projectile is accelerating down the length of the barrel, and hits the target decelerating at a different rate, so it cannot be equal in that regard as well.

I've easily killed more than a hundred deer. I've only had to track about 5 beyond a place where you could easily see where the shot occurred (ethical hunting). I've "autopsied" all of them but one. I've shot them with just about everything that its legal to shoot them with. I've shot them (antelope) at more than 600 yds. I shot one at 285 yds with a WWII M-1 with iron sights, and I jump shot a bedded doe at about 20 ft with a .357.

At risk of going against all the Goo-Roos and devotees of Goo-Roos, and IN MY OPINION, stopping power is more related to shot placement than it is to caliber. Larger caliber, more room for error on the shot placement. Smaller caliber and less room for error. The old adage of aim small, miss small doesn't just go away because it a pistol with 15 rounds, or a man and not an a different animal.

The only time you can say "volume of fire", and "accuracy" in the same sentence is at point blank range for 99% of people. I've never had to pull a pistol on a person, so maybe if all these guys are gun slingers with notches on their grips you can dismiss my opinion, but in my life I've found that the party to the fight that strikes first and strikes hardest is generally the winner. My first shot is the most important one there is ever going to be up to and including that very moment. If its accurate all the follow up shots, and every factor that comes after is on a slippery slope in my favor. If it's misplaced everything is more likely to go sideways.

There's no question that conventional wisdom among the Goo-Roos, a lot of law enforcement, and even some places in the military is to fire a lighter load pistol rapidly and in volleys. Great, but if you think this is a substitute for accurate shot placement I just hope the guy on the other end is doing the same thing you are, because if he's calmer, aims, and puts his first shot right where he wants it it's going to be quite a bit more difficult for your volley or anything else you do to turn things around.
 

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We are all looking for the best bullet to carry in our hand guns and rifles. It seems to be a never ending battle as to which round is better, which caliber is better and so on. I came across this article and thought I would share it here. IMO the author makes some very good points in regards to incapacitation and lethality. Based on the article it would appear that the fight in the BG really does come into play.

Firearm Stopping Power - Fact, Fiction and Anecdotes
Interesting read. :hand10:
 

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These discussions are getting a bit silly.

Ask any deer hunter about stopping power.
Simple physics dictate the result. M x V + (s^2) S= surface area.

The type of weapon that would deliver REAL stopping power is not available to most American Citizens. (i.e) RPG, 50 cal full auto etc...
Sorry, but the "simple physics" pseudo-equation you cited has nothing to do with physics.
I think that the equation offered was intended to be some form (?) of Hatcher's RSP formula (which is actually momentum times cross-sectional area of the bullet), but it is hard to know if it means anything for deer.
 

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My hunting rifle was a Sako 25-06 I took my Deer, Elk , Bear and Rock Chucks and had no problem again it comes down to shot placement. Hope to find my another one of these great models but the price on the older ones that I am looking for is out of my range. I'm thinking about tying a string around the heel of my boot so I can kick myself in the butt for selling it.
 

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I think that Larry Potterfield is just one of the greatest guys ever. An honest, true, and dear friend and benefactor to the entire firearm shooting community and firearm industry.

But, I always did disagree with his firearm "Knock Down Factor" evaluations since no firearm really has any guaranteed ability to stop an assailant even with a/one well placed shot.

I realize that he is just attempting to put various assorted handguns on some sort of measurable comparison scale But, ................that just cannot be realistically accomplished.
There are just too many real life variables.

But, I am willing to let Larry "slide" on his Knock Down Factor just because he is such an incredible person in every other area of his life. :yup:


ALL of us as gun owners have never had a better and more selfless friend than Larry Potterfield.
 

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A 12-gauge slug has kinetic energy roughly equivalent to a 10-pound bowling ball traveling at 85 miles per hour. Whether a slug knocks someone down has to do with how that energy is used when it hits them, but it definitely has ENOUGH energy to do it.
This is great example of why one should not use kinetic energy as a meaningful measure when dealing with a projectile's terminal ballistics. Momentum is far more meaningful, but there are many factors to be considered. I like this write up:

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Edit: I checked your math and calculated that the 12 gauge slug has only about half the kinetic energy as a 10-pound bowling ball traveling at 85 miles per hour (I used 1100 feet per second for the slug's velocity and 1 ounce for its weight). This does not change your overall point though. I also calculated that the bowling ball has about 18 times the momentum of the slug.
 

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This is great example of why one should not use kinetic energy as a meaningful measure when dealing with a projectile's terminal ballistics. Momentum is far more meaningful, but there are many factors to be considered. I like this write up:

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
Energy is still an important factor - the kinetic energy of the bullet is the energy used to damage tissue. The more you start with, the easier it is to do damage, but the bullet width, shape, mass, expansion and other factors play a critical role in using that energy well.
 

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Good read and interesting with the research done. I still stick by my opinion that I will carry the largest, most powerful gun I can shoot well and conceal. An opinion gained by working the street in LE for over 30 years and seeing the effects first hand on numerous occasions. Since we know that pain compliance works, you want to hurt them BAD. I know it sounds bad, but, it is what it is.
 
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