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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, I generally carry a small .380 IWB, but very very often carry my 9mm Glock or .40 S&W Glock in a leather waistpack/fannypack, and you can't tell there is a gun inside, unless it's opened.

I know of one wrongful detention by a Wal-Mart years ago, resulting in a lawsuit against WalMart, where a man was detained when they thought he was shoplifting, but he wasn't.

My question is sort of constituional search and seizure/false imprisonment versus "concealed"

Really, I just want to know how to handle a situation, should it ever occur:

Suppose I'm leaving a WalMart and the lady by the exit door asked to see inside my fanny pack.

Would I open it for her there, and be in violation for not being concealed

or

Ask her to call the manager where we could go in his office and ask what the probable cause of the search is, and then ?

or

Show the Manager, or store security, my license and hand him my fanny pack containing my weapon

or

Explain or show the manager my license, but hang onto it, and have the manager call for police if he wants to go further with the matter, and wait for police and show them my license before handing them the fanny pack containing my weapon.
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I could deal with the civil matter of illegal search or wrongfully detaining me later, I just want to know what's best while at the store, (so I'm not in violation of anything) if that ever occurred.
 

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Concealed is concealed, I wouldnt show anyone but a LEO whats in the bag...Meaning if they are accusing you of stealing, then call the PD right away.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
That's my first impression or thought too, just wanted to ask someone, since my CHL is brand new.
 

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I ignore the ungreeter - it is not required that you read, write, speak or understand English to shop at Wal-Mart. I may choose to communicate in Spanish or German... :gah:

There id no lawful requirement to submit to a search of your person or property. (Unless the request is made by properly ID'd LEO I do not submit.) (This may be different in your state - YMMV)

IANAL
 

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I spoke to the deputy that handles CCW for Arapahoe County, Colorado about this very subject, though I phrased is as what happens if the loss prevention alarm goes off and they want to search me.

Politely decline their request to look. They can't force the issue unless they saw you put something in there. If they think they did, politely decline to go to the office etc. and offer to wait there and call police to handle it. If the po-po want to disarm you, let them.

I would never want to be in a store managers office with him insistant, perhaps physically so, that he get at my weapon.

Waiting politely by the door while waiting for police should keep the store people off your back until you have someone there to keep them from doing something stupid or dangerous.

After getting my answer from the deputy about my hypothetical case, I've never needed to apply that information in many years of carrying.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I ignore the ungreeter - it is not required that you read, write, speak or understand English to shop at Wal-Mart. I may choose to communicate in Spanish or German... :gah:

There id no lawful requirement to submit to a search of your person or property. (Unless the request is made by properly ID'd LEO I do not submit.) (This may be different in your state - YMMV)

IANAL
:haha: :rofl:

Wonder if she speaks Kilngon?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks MountainPacker, that sounds like a good plan.

Very good advice, sounds like he ran into that before ... "Waiting politely by the door while waiting for police should keep the store people off your back until you have someone there to keep them from doing something stupid or dangerous."

Thanks guys, I just needed reinforcement, so I don't stupidly open my zipper and flash the old lady at the door. Thinking they had some right to see inside my zipper.
Well, that sounds funny, but you know what I mean.
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I got a similar reply elsewhere:

What legal authority does the lady by the exit have to search you?
What legal authority does the Store Manager have to search you?
What legal authority does store security have to search you?

Tell them "No". They aren't law enforcement and don't have a warrant or probable cause.

If they want you to stay while they call in police (and you feel like staying), when the LEO arrives and asks for ID, show them your CHL and explain that "this is why" you chose to not open your pack.

If you don't want to stay, what legal right do they have to detain you? If they want to get aggressive and lay hands on you, I believe that's battery
 

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In WA state a shopkeep has right to detain you, but not search you.
 

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+1 on the above comments. I have wondered about the same thing myself.
Showing your weapon could land you in a bigger mess. (headlines might read "suspected shoplifter pulls gun.")

I will add that whenever I see a waist/fanny pack, I assume their is a gun in it. :wave:
 

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Show the Manager, or store security, my license and hand him my fanny pack containing my weapon
Never , under any circumstance do you surrender your weapon to anyone other than a Police Officer duly authorized to disarm you.

I wouldn't consent to a search by an Officer why would I consent to one from a Wal-Mart employee?
 

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Would I open it for her there, and be in violation for not being concealed
If you open it and flashed your weapon to the door stationed employee just for the sake of showing him/her you had a gun, that is brandishing and is illegal. If you are stopped and requested to show the contents of your pack for whatever reason (and I agree you would not have to) and you do, and a gun is inside which you legally can carry, you have broken no laws.

Ask her to call the manager where we could go in his office and ask what the probable cause of the search is, and then ?
Nothing at all wrong with that

Show the Manager, or store security, my license and hand him my fanny pack containing my weapon
NO!, you never should hand your firearm over to anyone, much less a (probably) untrained, firearm safety uneducated, Wal-Mart employee, manager, door greeter or otherwise!! The only exception to this at Wal-mart or anywhere else is if a Identified LEO requestes you to give him your weapon, and in that case you should, and just as you stated-leave it in the fanny pack and hand the pack over to the officer, don't pull the gun to hand it over :wink:

Ok, I generally carry a small .380 IWB, but very very often carry my 9mm Glock or .40 S&W Glock in a leather waistpack/fannypack, and you can't tell there is a gun inside, unless it's opened.
Of course you can tell there is agun inside, if you see a man walking around in Wal-mart with a Fanny Pack on, you can guarantee there is a gun in it!:bier:
 

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Ran into this same issue in Oregon. I set off the sensors, they told me to stop, but being young and cocky (ie. stupid) I kept walking since I knew the law and they had no right to stop me. Living in a small town, law enforcement was there by the time I made it to my car and an employee grabbed my arm to stop me. When one of the officers approached us, I promptly stated my rights and the law (she had no right to stop me because I am a lot of things but not a thief, she had to tell me what I stoled and where it was on my person) next I informed them that I had a CCW and where my Firestorm .45 was on my hip (Don't worry, I have up graded since, but for 200 bucks 3" groups and never a malfunction I could trust my life with it). The managers eyes were as large as silver dollars when they pulled back my coat and disarmed me, but better than that was the look on her face when they handed back my weapon. She called corporate cause I threatened to sue and later came back with a check that I didn't accept thinking if they were gonna offer that much, just think how much I would get if I were to sue. Never did sue, chalked that up to kharma and I was being cocky. But for that and 100 other reasons I have never shopped there again and never will and IMHO Wally World is as unAmerican as Kim Jung Il. My advise is to wait for the police with the manager, be polite and take the check!!!!
 

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I would remain calm and politely tell him, her, them...to have a nice day, and I'd keep walking. :wave:
If grabbed, I'd begin thinking about the new car I like to buy.:yup::image035::blink:
 

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@Kral-it was 5k and some change and back in the mid '90s...
@Retsupt-I did tell them to have a nice day (thats how I piss people off sometimes is by being polite)
 

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@Kral-it was 5k and some change and back in the mid '90s...
I figured that was gonna be what they offered... Here's a story from last year...

The greeter stopped a friend of my son's, for the same thing...his cellphone set off the alarm...when he didn't stop they chased him to the parking lot and grabbed him and forcefully restrained him...

Now a little background on this kid...He's a national honor society student, athlete, Eagle Scout, with offers for academic and sports scholarships...

Well, his parent's got there about the same time as the cops, the officer asked what he took? The store manager said he had refused to be searched, but had set off the alarms, so he knew he had something...the cop asked him if he had anything and the kid showed him...all he had was his cellphone...His dad started talking about a lawsuit for harming his sons reputation and possibly effecting his scholarships...They called corporate that night....the next day corporate called offering $10k...his dad laughed...I never heard the exact amount, but the kid's driving a brand new 3/4 ton 4wd Z71 Silverado Extended cab truck...w/ a suspension lift and 35" tires... a kid's dream truck... all paid for by walmart...
 

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I figured that was gonna be what they offered... Here's a story from last year...

The greeter stopped a friend of my son's, for the same thing...his cellphone set off the alarm...when he didn't stop they chased him to the parking lot and grabbed him and forcefully restrained him...

Now a little background on this kid...He's a national honor society student, athlete, Eagle Scout, with offers for academic and sports scholarships...

Well, his parent's got there about the same time as the cops, the officer asked what he took? The store manager said he had refused to be searched, but had set off the alarms, so he knew he had something...the cop asked him if he had anything and the kid showed him...all he had was his cellphone...His dad started talking about a lawsuit for harming his sons reputation and possibly effecting his scholarships...They called corporate that night....the next day corporate called offering $10k...his dad laughed...I never heard the exact amount, but the kid's driving a brand new 3/4 ton 4wd Z71 Silverado Extended cab truck...w/ a suspension lift and 35" tires... a kid's dream truck... all paid for by walmart...
Hmmmm maybe I need to start wandering around the Walmart exits more often with something in my pocket...
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
LOL, well, the reason I chose Wal-Mart as the example was because the law firm I retired from after working there 25 years, had handled quite a few Wal-Mart cases during that time.

I"ve had them searched at the gate of SeaWorld or SixFlags before when they'd keep the knife I had in one, but after opening the one fulll of my girlfreind's tampons, didn't dig to the bottom and remove the other pocket knife I had, which they returned when I left. They also searched all womens' purse years ago ... I don't recall ever being asked to open one at Renessaince Festival.


As far as fanny packs, I got started carrying them at casinos, Had to wear 2 or 3 fanny packs at a time, one for quarters, one for dollars, etc etc ... I've consistantly worn them without a firearm for about 30 years, I keep candy, toothpicks, checkbook and bills in one. WalMart sees me at the customer service counter every month when I pay in person right out of my fannypack I pull the bill and check ... I live in a very tiny town, about 6 blocks long, and everyone knows I wear them, but the Wal-Mart is in another city 11 miles away.

Mostly I carry IWB, but still have a fanny pack with toothpicks, candy etc lol

I have a holster fanny pack, made to fit a Glock 17/19 which I've used when "traveling" for years, back when that was the only real way to go, and worn that for years, with my toothpicks, candy etc in it.....

Whenever I've seen a waistpack, I always thought "tourist" or poor guy having to carry tampons because his wife wouldn't bring her purse.

I have probaly 20 leather fanny packs, I guess I collect the things, but I'm always buying new ones, in case that type fits better/holds something better etc.

I actually use two ankle holsters, a waist belt type abdomen holster, and carry IWB .... but last night filled about 10 fanny packs with guns and their magazines, figuring that's a decent dust free environment and handy to carry too.
 

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Never , under any circumstance do you surrender your weapon to anyone other than a Police Officer duly authorized to disarm you.

I wouldn't consent to a search by an Officer why would I consent to one from a Wal-Mart employee?
That is correct, and never think you must do so...
 
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