Another Reason To Carry

2132 Views 16 Replies 16 Participants Last post by amlevin, Jun 3, 2006

amlevin

Discussion Starter · Jun 2, 2006

Attached is an article from a local newspaper that covered a Washington State Supreme Court ruling. In short, the Snohomish County Sheriff's Department took over 15 minutes to respond to a situation that ended in the homeowner shooting an intruder. One has to ask how much damage the intruder could have done to the occupant(s) if someone on the premises wasn't armed.

For those out there that believe nobody but Police should carry weapons I ask, "what do you do when they are the only ones with guns and they don't show up?". Improvise? Play Charades? Engage a deranged individual in meaningful conversation?

http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/05/23/100loc_b1suit001.cfm

This should be among the required reading articles for all those that believe in the ability of Law Enforcement to protect us. They do what they can but no Department can be expected to have someone on the scene within the critical first moments of an incident like the one reported.

For some reason, those that want to take guns from the hands of the citizens also refuse to give the necessary funds to Police Departments to increase their presence and reduce response times. This same Sheriff's Department is currently fighting with a liberal county executive for adequate funding to bring his force up to the same level as other departments (# of deputies per thousand of population).

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

havegunjoe

· #2 · Jun 2, 2006

Acctually 15 minutes seems to be pretty quick to me but of course it is not fast enough in an emergency like this one. As I have said for years you can rely on only one person for your protection, and that person is yourself. The sheep will never figure this out. They will always think the government will protect them.

Rock and Glock

· #3 · Jun 2, 2006

havegunjoe said:
Acctually 15 minutes seems to be pretty quick to me but of course it is not fast enough in an emergency like this one. As I have said for years you can rely on only one person for your protection, and that person is yourself. The sheep will never figure this out. They will always think the government will protect them.

Exactly. Even if the response time is only 3-5 minutes a lot bad can happen. Where we are it could be 15 to 30 minutes!

4my sons

· #4 · Jun 2, 2006

Not only an inability to protect everyone, not even reasonable to “expect” it, LE is not "by law" responsible for protecting everyone. Warren V. District of Colombia is one of the premier cases that spells this out. In this case, they showed up and failed to recognize the situation, three women paid dearly for it. A simple mistake, and you are on your own. And don't try to get any kind of compensation for it either. That's why I feel for that little boy in Detroit that the 911 operators belittled and his mom died.

Sorry, I'll step down form my soap box now.
Rant off.

Have a nice day.

Janq

· #5 · Jun 2, 2006

The problem is that for some odd reason people think that calling the po-po results in instantaneous results ala Superman, Batman or Tom Cruise and his "Pre-Crime" crew as depicted in 'Minority Report'.

I agree with the legal finding, the police are not at fault.
We are responsible for our own safety and that of our family as a primary level. The police are secondary support and legal makers of record.

- Janq

HotGuns

· #6 · Jun 2, 2006

15 minutes is good.

It's taken me over an HOUR to respond to calls...and thats if I left right then to get to it. There are some parts of this county that take longer to get to than that. Considering that there are times when there is only 1 deputy on duty for the whole county..it only makes sense that folks are prepared to defend themselves and NOT depend on someone else to do it for them.

It's irresponsible to expect someone else to take care or you or your family.

P95Carry

· #7 · Jun 2, 2006

When we stop and think what can occur within a mere 15 seconds - it is as ever quite apparent that we have to take responsibity for our own safety - it is the only way.

When the cavalry turns up, even at their fastest - it is probaby sometimes time to draw chalk lines and get out the body bags.

dr_cmg

· #8 · Jun 2, 2006

It seems that many people think that 911 is a magic potion that solves all problems or that when you call 911 the respondent is going to be beamed into the house through the telephone receiver. If you call 911 and the police car is parked in your driveway it will take a minute or so for the police in that car to respond to the call. The 911 operator has to get the info and then call the car over the radio. The officers have to get the information from the dispatcher and have to understand it. Then they must get out of the car gather any equipment needed that is not on the belt and get to your door. My 60 feet from the curb. If I called 911 and made a report, I would expect it to take from 1 to 2 minutes from the time I hung up for the police to reach my front door, even if they were parked at the curb 60 feet away.

Of course, chiefs of police and other bureaucrats in charge of public safety foster the misconception as to how long it will take a respondent to get to you after a 911 call. It was just a few weeks ago that there was a post about someone defending himself while waiting for the police and the story contained the obligatory statement that you should not take things into your own hands and should call 911. One of these times there is going to be a judge who lets one of these suits go through simply because the governments - city, county, state, federal - all continue to repeat the mantra of "call 911 and let us handle it." I think that if I were the lawyer for these people I would do research to see if the county has misinformed citizens about what to expect from a 911 call and if they have to refile the suit on the basis of those misrepresentations. It might not get anywhere, but I bet it would scare the tar out of a bunch of people. Especially if the lawyer could get wide exposure for the case.

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mcclearypl

· #9 · Jun 3, 2006

911 is a way to report a problem, nothing else. Response time depends on call load, priorty, number of officers on duty and even the weather. The police can not promise to protect any one person at any one time. I do this job everyday and some times we get the bear and some times the bear gets us. YOU are the only person that keep the bear away until we get there. Oh a 15 min response time in our county would be a miracle there would be dancing in the street. In the city I work for we are in the 3-5 min range across the board.

Dakotaranger

· #10 · Jun 3, 2006

I've told people

That in this state it may take a deputy at least thirty minutes to an hour to respond in some counties just because of the sheer size, and it takes thirty seconds for someone to bleed out from a neck wound. It tends to get the point across. :comeandgetsome:

Miggy

· #11 · Jun 3, 2006

What's the average response time nationwide? Does anybody know?

TonyW

· #12 · Jun 3, 2006

A buddy of mine was talking to one of the county sheriff deputies. He had made a call because some kids were running their 4X4s around on some of his property tearing it up (this isn't close next to his house). It took them more than 30 minutes to show up. This was a non-emergency call of course. But he was told the same thing. Maybe two deputies on call in the whole county at one time. And if they are in the middle of one call when you need them well they have to finish what they are doing first before they can come and help you. The deputy's advice to my friend? "If you catch them and they drive their truck at you like they're trying to hit you, shoot 'em."

packinnova

· #13 · Jun 3, 2006

Clarke VA

Ha - 15 minutes! I experieced a B&E my first week living in Clarke Co VA (nice welcome to the area:redface

In short, I didn't discover the house was compromised until I was standing in the back hallway looking at an open back door. Cleared my way out and called Clarke County Sherriffs. It took them about 35 minutes (Which I expect- I'm not in the city). We're all on our own out here.

MSGTTBAR

· #14 · Jun 3, 2006

I think the intro to "law and order" says it best: :"....The Police, Who Investigate Crime...". Nothing there about prevention.

jiggz01

· #15 · Jun 3, 2006

I live in Snohomish County. I remember before I got my carry license when I turned 21, I was listening to the police scanner for fun and heard a call from dispatch go out to patrol cars about a man loitering and making threats to people in front of the public library. At first, I thought it would be interesting just to see if I could find the location and see how the police would handle the situation. Then after I pulled up I realized that I had gotten there about 30 seconds before the police, keep in mind, I drove from about 1.5 miles away from my house! What really suprised me was that the Everett police Department headquaters was a couple of blocks down from the scene. As soon as I turned 21 I got my carry license accordingly as I knew I could be anyway within city limits and have to wait for possibly over 5 minutes as it took me to drive down there . BTW (I wasn't trying to play cop and I don't think I would ever purposely put myself in a potentially dangerous situation but I was young and dumb at the time and unaware of possible serious consequences) If anything, situations like that serve to wake me up to reality.

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gddyup

· #16 · Jun 3, 2006

We also have to realize too that the operator on the phone at 911 doesn't always get the call right. I can't count the number of times we've responded to a call for one type of incident only to show up and have something completly the opposite of what 911 had told us. You may dial 911 with an honest emergency and have 911 screw it up and send us or the PD out for a non-emergent call!! It happens a lot more than most people realize. Not to mention the fact that in some areas, your call to 911 may not even be answered or may be answered by someone who is completely unqualified to be handling that call.

Ever heard that song from many years ago by Public Enemy?...

"911 is a joke" is sometimes not that far off!

amlevin

Discussion Starter · #17 · Jun 3, 2006

Response Times vary widely

Miggy said:
What's the average response time nationwide? Does anybody know?

Response times will vary so widely across the nation that any "average" will be meaningless. In Snohomish County, WA which was where the lawsuit was filed, the county has a population equal to the entire state of North Dakota. Here, according to the court, a 15 minute response time is not unreasonable. In some rural areas 30 minutes plus may be reasonable. Attached is an article from the Washington Times that compares some response times across the country for major cities.
http://washingtontimes.com/metro/20040510-122711-8996r.htm
It would appear that the best response time to a Priority 1 call is a few seconds over 5 minutes. These times are from call receipt to

fficer on scene". How long does it then take the officer to make it from car to complainant? (See earlier post)

Whenever anyone hears a public official say that people should rely on "9-1-1", they should immediately respond with "but who takes care of us until they get here"?

If we look at actual events, the entire Columbine Massacre took place in less than 10 minutes of actual shooting. (About the total playing time of "Stairway to Heaven") There was an officer on scene when it began.

When we are told that we don't need carry permits and the state either refuses to issue them, or makes it "At the option of the CLEO" put it back in the laps of the elected "representatives (???)" and ask them if they are going to accept the responsiblity for protecting us even though the courts say they don't.

In the meantime, it will not only be necessary for us to provide for our defense, but consider medical attention as well. Remember that 9-1-1 also sends the Aid Car and they to can't respond much faster than the police. How many out there carry weapons yet haven't taken the time to take a course in First Aid or CPR?

It has been said well in a short sentence "If it is to be, It's up to me"!!

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