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FirearmsCoalition.org ^ | 15 January, 2010 | Jeff Knox
Posted on January 16, 2010 9:14:20 AM EST

(Manassas, VA, January 14, 2010) I recently wrote about the need for preaching to the choir – too many of our own friends, family members, and fellow shooters are woefully uninformed about the fight for liberty. A chance conversation in a hardware store this week really brought home just how much work there is to do beyond the choir room doors. At the hardware store I got into a conversation with a fellow shopper. As conversations with me tend to do, it wasn’t long before we were talking about guns and gun laws. The fellow’s wife had joined the conversation by this time and while his reaction was troubling, her reaction was down right scary.

This was a nice couple in their 50’s, fairly conservative, into classic cars, and in the market for a .38 for home protection. They were not loony-tune lefties by any means. They also mentioned a good friend who owns many guns and reloads. The conversation rolled along smoothly until the topic of “Uzi’s and machineguns” came up. As you can imagine, it wasn’t me talking about “Uzi’s and machineguns.”

I explained that there is little difference between an Uzi and any 9mm handgun or carbine and that legal machineguns are virtually never used in crime. That so called “assault weapons” are also rarely used In crime and that millions and millions of them are owned and used every day without hurting anyone. That the Second Amendment isn’t about duck or deer hunting, it is about being able to defend yourself, your family, your community, your state, and your country.

That is when the woman said something really chilling. She said that those crazy people who want all of those military weapons and think they have a right to that kind of capability just infuriate her and scare her to death and even though she doesn’t think people should have machineguns, those crazy people make her wish she had a machinegun to just shoot them all.:boese51::comeandgetsome:

What on earth do you do with something like that?

I explained that those “crazy people” weren’t radical nut-jobs hoping for an opportunity to shoot a terrorist. They are ordinary people – her neighbors – who believe they have a right and an obligation to be prepared to defend our way of life. I told her that those guys aren’t “those guys,” they are me. I tried to get her to understand that these gun owners are asking nothing more than to be left alone, and that trying to disarm them for no reason would result in tragedy.

Nothing I said could penetrate her resolve or her husband’s support for her position. She was absolutely convinced that no one should “be allowed” to own more than a couple of guns or more than a little ammunition and that anyone who refused to conform to such restrictions deserved whatever they got in the way of government agents forcing compliance.

The whole encounter shocked me. I have had arguments with anti-gun zealots over the years and their ability to ignore facts and embrace irrational fear has always amazed me, but these folks didn’t fit the mold. These folks were asking my advice about gun stores and training, but they were ready to employ the Marines to forcefully disarm – or kill – people like me.:twak:

I’ve talked with conservatives who just didn’t get the whole “gun thing” and I’ve talked to gun owners who didn’t see why anyone should have an “assault weapon” or a .50 BMG or a little-bitty handgun, and I’ve almost always been stunned by their myopia. But this is the first time I have ever met a reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent person who was ready to declare war on her countrymen simply because they wanted to have the means to effectively defend themselves from just such an assault.

I have resolved that I am going to find a way to reach this woman and others like her. I am going to formulate arguments that will breach her hoplophobia and help her understand my position – and her own. At this point I’m not sure what those arguments will be, but I do know that it won’t be easy.

I’m afraid that there are a lot more folks like this couple out there. Folks who are afraid of me because I believe in the right to arms. I don’t know yet how I’m going to allay those fears, if I can allay them, but I do know that we need answers for these folks and we have a whole lot of work to do.

Permission to reprint or post this article in its entirety is hereby granted provided this credit is included. Text is available at The Firearms Coalition. To receive The Firearms Coalition’s bi-monthly newsletter, The Knox Hard Corps Report, write to PO Box 3313, Manassas, VA 20108. ©Copyright 2010 Neal Knox Associates – The most trusted name in the rights movement.
 

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Tough battle. You could ask her what her response would be if someone else said the same thing about "those crazy people who want handguns" like their 38. Who gets to decide what is reasonable or not? Crazy people shouldn't have any type of guns. In the hands of responsible law abiding citizens, the weapons she is discussing are no more of a concern than her having her 38.
 

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I know those people, not the ones you spoke to but ones just like them.
From what experience I've had with them, you might just as well have walked over to the tool section and started talking to the hammers.

There are people who refuse to see beyond their own beliefs no matter what approach you use. It's ingrained in them through years of being sensitized by media, parents, educational systems, political views, you name it.

It's hard to use rational to quell an irrational fear.
 

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Here is a tougher nut to crack: The son of a very old friend of mine is a West point grad and serving Infantry Officer. This guy has done two tours of Afghanistan and in FOUR days deploys to Iraq. He's an NRA Life member and not only does he have his ccw permit, he was XO of the German American Joint Services Pistol Team. He is heavily decorated in combat. This kid hasn't just seen the elephant, he's fought the whole herd. While he's all for ccw for handguns and the like, he feels that NOBODY should have access to class III weapons outside of the military. He grudgingly admits I have the needed skills, but he doesn't want just any civilian to own a SAW.

Know what's more disturbing about this young man? He's a political liberal. He voted for and still enthusiastically supports Obama. He's against the "Health Care" bill but refuses to judge the man based on his handling of this single issue. Try as I might, I can't change his mind and neither can his dad.
 

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the nomenclature got stuck when they titled them "assault rifles" (AR's) , that was the first mistake of the industry. Then the early 90's mentality they were something only owned by 'gun nuts', with no understanding by the general public.
 

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She said that those crazy people who want all of those military weapons and think they have a right to that kind of capability just infuriate her and scare her to death and even though she doesn’t think people should have machineguns, those crazy people make her wish she had a machinegun to just shoot them all.
She actually said she'd willingly contemplate mass murder in order to silence those who embodied a perceived trait because of their purchases?

John Q. Public purchases a Remington 700 bolt-action rifle in 8mm Mauser, but he's fine in her mind. He can't possibly have designs on anyone, 'cause he doesn't have an "assault" weapon. But the next week, he purchases a 1940's vintage 8mm Mauser bolt-action rifle that happened to have been used for a couple years in the military ... and according to her logic she would seriously consider murdering that person because of the purchase. Hm.

Some people aren't worth a dozen words to describe how seriously painful their gullibility is. Likely, she's perfectly intelligent and capable of following a description of a tool and distinguishing it from another, but the mere fact some people mistakenly call something an "assault" weapon, she can't make heads or tails of it. To the point she believes anyone in possession of one deserves to be murdered, to salve her conscience and irrational, insupportable fears.

God Almighty, there are some weak examples of bipeds on this planet. :tired:


I suppose all we can do is to look on the bright side. If something less than facts helped people misconstrue reality, then a heavy helping of facts (dosed properly) can help them correctly see what's true.
 

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She said that those crazy people who want all of those military weapons and think they have a right to that kind of capability just infuriate her and scare her to death and even though she doesn’t think people should have machineguns, those crazy people make her wish she had a machinegun to just shoot them all.
There's your sign...she's the crazy person. You can't fix that. Once she made that statement, I think I would have just said, "And you're calling THEM crazy? Seems like the pot is calling the kettle black." My advice is avoid them.

This makes no more sense than anti-abortion folks killing people that work for the clinics "because they are murderers and they don't believe in murder." Did they just not commit murder themselves?
 

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FirearmsCoalition.org ^ | 15 January, 2010 | Jeff Knox
Posted on January 16, 2010 9:14:20 AM EST

(Manassas, VA, January 14, 2010) I recently wrote about the need for preaching to the choir – too many of our own friends, family members, and fellow shooters are woefully uninformed about the fight for liberty. A chance conversation in a hardware store this week really brought home just how much work there is to do beyond the choir room doors. At the hardware store I got into a conversation with a fellow shopper. As conversations with me tend to do, it wasn’t long before we were talking about guns and gun laws. The fellow’s wife had joined the conversation by this time and while his reaction was troubling, her reaction was down right scary.

This was a nice couple in their 50’s, fairly conservative, into classic cars, and in the market for a .38 for home protection. They were not loony-tune lefties by any means. They also mentioned a good friend who owns many guns and reloads. The conversation rolled along smoothly until the topic of “Uzi’s and machineguns” came up. As you can imagine, it wasn’t me talking about “Uzi’s and machineguns.”

I explained that there is little difference between an Uzi and any 9mm handgun or carbine and that legal machineguns are virtually never used in crime. That so called “assault weapons” are also rarely used In crime and that millions and millions of them are owned and used every day without hurting anyone. That the Second Amendment isn’t about duck or deer hunting, it is about being able to defend yourself, your family, your community, your state, and your country.

That is when the woman said something really chilling. She said that those crazy people who want all of those military weapons and think they have a right to that kind of capability just infuriate her and scare her to death and even though she doesn’t think people should have machineguns, those crazy people make her wish she had a machinegun to just shoot them all.:boese51::comeandgetsome:

What on earth do you do with something like that?

I explained that those “crazy people” weren’t radical nut-jobs hoping for an opportunity to shoot a terrorist. They are ordinary people – her neighbors – who believe they have a right and an obligation to be prepared to defend our way of life. I told her that those guys aren’t “those guys,” they are me. I tried to get her to understand that these gun owners are asking nothing more than to be left alone, and that trying to disarm them for no reason would result in tragedy.

Nothing I said could penetrate her resolve or her husband’s support for her position. She was absolutely convinced that no one should “be allowed” to own more than a couple of guns or more than a little ammunition and that anyone who refused to conform to such restrictions deserved whatever they got in the way of government agents forcing compliance.

The whole encounter shocked me. I have had arguments with anti-gun zealots over the years and their ability to ignore facts and embrace irrational fear has always amazed me, but these folks didn’t fit the mold. These folks were asking my advice about gun stores and training, but they were ready to employ the Marines to forcefully disarm – or kill – people like me.:twak:

I’ve talked with conservatives who just didn’t get the whole “gun thing” and I’ve talked to gun owners who didn’t see why anyone should have an “assault weapon” or a .50 BMG or a little-bitty handgun, and I’ve almost always been stunned by their myopia. But this is the first time I have ever met a reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent person who was ready to declare war on her countrymen simply because they wanted to have the means to effectively defend themselves from just such an assault.

I have resolved that I am going to find a way to reach this woman and others like her. I am going to formulate arguments that will breach her hoplophobia and help her understand my position – and her own. At this point I’m not sure what those arguments will be, but I do know that it won’t be easy.

I’m afraid that there are a lot more folks like this couple out there. Folks who are afraid of me because I believe in the right to arms. I don’t know yet how I’m going to allay those fears, if I can allay them, but I do know that we need answers for these folks and we have a whole lot of work to do.

Permission to reprint or post this article in its entirety is hereby granted provided this credit is included. Text is available at The Firearms Coalition. To receive The Firearms Coalition’s bi-monthly newsletter, The Knox Hard Corps Report, write to PO Box 3313, Manassas, VA 20108. ©Copyright 2010 Neal Knox Associates – The most trusted name in the rights movement.
Would like to have been a fly on the wall for this conversation. If anyone has the ability to get through to this women, I know its you Ex, having read many of your posts and thus gotten a sense for your ability to argue your point with intelligence, knowledge,and "the facts", I feel confident you'll find a way. Goo dluck.

Here is a tougher nut to crack: The son of a very old friend of mine is a West point grad and serving Infantry Officer. This guy has done two tours of Afghanistan and in FOUR days deploys to Iraq. He's an NRA Life member and not only does he have his ccw permit, he was XO of the German American Joint Services Pistol Team. He is heavily decorated in combat. This kid hasn't just seen the elephant, he's fought the whole herd. While he's all for ccw for handguns and the like, he feels that NOBODY should have access to class III weapons outside of the military. He grudgingly admits I have the needed skills, but he doesn't want just any civilian to own a SAW. Know what's more disturbing about this young man? He's a political liberal. He voted for and still enthusiastically supports Obama. He's against the "Health Care" bill but refuses to judge the man based on his handling of this single issue. Try as I might, I can't change his mind and neither can his dad.

He's also a "secular humanist" and does not embrace God in nearly any form. His dad is a born again Christian (as I am) and when his dad retired as a teacher, he went up to DC to run a nonprofit group that ministers to members of Congress! The son's rejection of Jesus has both his dad and myself terribly worried. He's not exactly in a safe profession and he's going in harms way yet again in a few days.
This is a hard one, and disturbing. I know several people who would agree with his postion about class 3 weapons, and one or two about all firearms.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Quote of the year.... so far

I know those people, not the ones you spoke to but ones just like them. From what experience I've had with them, you might just as well have walked over to the tool section and started talking to the hammers.
You might owe me a new keyboard. My morning protein shake came out my nose and sprayed the area I laughed so hard!

Walk over to the tool section and start talking to the HAMMERS. ROFLMAO!

BTW, I didn't talk to her. The author of this article did. I highlighted his name at the start of the piece.
 

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You might owe me a new keyboard. My morning protein shake came out my nose and sprayed the area I laughed so hard!

Walk over to the tool section and start talking to the HAMMERS. ROFLMAO!

BTW, I didn't talk to her. The author of this article did. I highlighted his name at the start of the piece.
Watch for the UPS truck, I just sent you a new keyboard.:yup:
 

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I wonder if part of the problem is that too many people don't understand the difference between 'semi auto' and 'auto'.

My wife being one of them. In spite of how many times that I've explained the difference, she still thinks all 'black rifles' are full-auto 'machine guns'.

Although, if the truth be told, I'd prefer to be able to own 'full auto' (without special licensing) as well. :embarassed:
 

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reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent person
The reason that you are dissapointed and shocked is because while you though that these were reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent person their statements prove that they are not.

At this point, they are still educated idiots and they are the most dangerous of all.

Reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent people really are in the minority in this country and the current Administration and buffoons that support are proof of it.
 

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The reason that you are dissapointed and shocked is because while you though that these were reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent person their statements prove that they are not.

At this point, they are still educated idiots and they are the most dangerous of all.

Reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent people really are in the minority in this country and the current Administration and buffoons that support are proof of it.
^^What H.G. said.^^

You can not rationalize with someone who is irrational.

Both examples that ExSoldier gave are totally irrational non-thinking I.D. 10 T's.
 

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This makes no more sense than anti-abortion folks killing people that work for the clinics "because they are murderers and they don't believe in murder." Did they just not commit murder themselves?
The basic logic is like that used by the righteous soldier, who understands that his actions (killing others) result in ultimately reducing the future ability of others (the enemy) to commit heinous acts. The folks who take out abortion docs are essentially relying on similar logic in attempting to justify their killing of others. In such situations, people rationalize the choosing of the lesser of two evils.

But most folks can understand some of the choices made in war. And I think it's reasonably easy to understand where folks are coming from who believe that taking out abortion clinic workers can be justified.

This thread, though, is about a person who believed that merely having a firearm from a certain era with certain features justified murdering that person for all the perceived thoughts such people must have simply by having the product in their safes. THAT is a completely different category of claim, as compared to that of the soldier, obviously so IMO. It's on a par with the thinking of the murderers who take out abortion clinic docs, justifying their commission of murder on the basis of their personal affront at someone else's actions, even though those actions are legal and acceptable in the society.
 

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The basic logic is like that used by the righteous soldier, who understands that his actions (killing others) result in ultimately reducing the future ability of others (the enemy) to commit heinous acts. The folks who take out abortion docs are essentially relying on similar logic in attempting to justify their killing of others. In such situations, people rationalize the choosing of the lesser of two evils.

But most folks can understand some of the choices made in war. And I think it's reasonably easy to understand where folks are coming from who believe that taking out abortion clinic workers can be justified.

This thread, though, is about a person who believed that merely having a firearm from a certain era with certain features justified murdering that person for all the perceived thoughts such people must have simply by having the product in their safes. THAT is a completely different category of claim, as compared to that of the soldier, obviously so IMO. It's on a par with the thinking of the murderers who take out abortion clinic docs, justifying their commission of murder on the basis of their personal affront at someone else's actions, even though those actions are legal and acceptable in the society.
I'm not exactly sure what you just said, so I guess I don't subscribe to whatever logic can justify getting a machine gun to kill people who have machine guns (presumably because they kill people). It just sounds like good old fashioned, toys in the attic, drop their bucket in the well and it don't get wet CRAZY. And you can't argue logic with crazy.

Like I've been told before, when you stumble across a big pot of crazy...don't stir it. Sneak off quietly and avoid it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Ahhhh BUT.....

Like I've been told before, when you stumble across a big pot of crazy...don't stir it. Sneak off quietly and avoid it.
Reminds me of an old Marx Brothers movie when Groucho suggests sneaking around a hotel in the middle of the night and switching all the room numbers around. A horrified manager exclaims: Think of the CHAOS!

Groucho winks and chews on his cigar with enthusiasm and chortles: Yeah, but think of the FUN!

Sometimes, it's FUN to stir the Pot O'Crazies. Like when a liberal colleague of mine many years ago yelled to me across the teacher's lunch room and asked if I was a member of one of those whacko Militia Groups and I yelled back with equal vigor:

Heck NO! I would never associate myself with that group of LIBERAL PANSIES! :image035:

After she fled the room screaming in horror:aargh4:, the other teachers allowed that she got what she deserved for messing with me.... The general feeling in the room was: "Mess with a sharp knife and you're bound to get cut....":twak:

I usually answered those sort of stupid questions from other teachers with that answer or in the negative on the grounds that I did not but it wasn't because I disagreed with the group's goals and beliefs, it was just that I felt they couldn't teach me anything I didn't already know.... either response drew similar reactions from academia. PANIC.:rofl:
 

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I HAVE to deal with enough crazy at work...I try to avoid it when I can. Sometimes it is unavoidable, so either have some fun with it or accept that you can't reason with it.
 

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Dealing with people who are emotionally or idealistically set in their ways is not at all uncommon even though it flies in the face of logic, and they would be considered, by any measure, intelligent folks, thus the phrase " you can't teach an old dog new tricks" was coined. As I've said many times before, what is it about criminals not obeying laws (gun laws) that anti 2A ers don't understand? You would think even an idiot could grasp the concept after the first few hundred restrictive gun laws had no effect on violent crime.
 
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