[Dustinmk4]

So I almost have my EMT certification and if all goes as planned I'll be going to school for my Paramedic before too long, but I was thinking the other day how does that effect my decision to carry. Aside from what my specific departments policy is and all that. Say I'm just out with the family and have to draw and shoot someone to protect me and my fam. how does being an EMT change things. Am I obligated to turn around an work the guy I just shot to keep him alive? I imagine that the right lawyer would have a hay day with this situation an put me away.

I realize that the main thing I have to worry about when on call is scene safety so in that aspect I'm thinking that if I had to draw then he scene is not safe and I should not work the guy I shot. But on the other hand if he is unconsious he can't be much of a threat.

Maybe someone with more field experience as an EMS person can help.

Thanks in advance.

 

[JohnK87]

If you shoot them, you shouldn't have any other contact with them unless it is dialing 911 or facing them in court. I don't care WHAT your training is.

 

[Stevew]

I am not sure about the legal aspect, but the purpose of an SD shoot is to stop a threat. There was a court case I was following where a wife shot her husband. One of the things bought up by the prosecutor was that she did not render aid after the shot. The 1911 recording had the operator asking her if she could stop the bleeding. The wife refused because she was scared.

 

[Dustinmk4]

If you shoot them, you shouldn't have any other contact with them unless it is dialing 911 or facing them in court. I don't care WHAT your training is.

Thats how I feel also but it doesn't matter what we think its all up to lawyers and juries. In my opinion if I shoot then I'm not about to turn around and try to save them, because I shot for the purpose of them trying to hurt me and my family.

Stevew,
How did that court case end up?

 

[joshe]

I'm finishing up my EMT cert as well and have been wondering about some of the same things. The squad I've been running with doesn't seem to have any rules against CC for it's volunteers and employees. there is a rule states guests doing ride-a-longs have to leave any firearms in their car. but I still need to check my other local protocols

 

[NC Bullseye]

If you are involved in a self defense shooting remember:

You are an EMT not LE. You have not gone through the training to safely ensure a downed assailant is disarmed and no longer a threat.

You are also no longer a disinterested party. You are most likely in the middle of an adrenalin dump with only gross motor skills working and you need to maintain the area as safe until LE arrives.

Don't get tunnel vision on one assailant, keep watch for a partner that may not be obvious yet.

Any treatment you render may be misconstrued as detrimental if things go bad for the bad guy.

Maintain your safety and the safety of others in the immediate area and wait for help to arrive. Keep your distance from the assailant. Don't forget to reholster or lay your handgun down upon arrival of LE. If you can be on the phone prior to their arrival you can identify yourself a little easier.

 

[paramedic70002]

What Bullseye said only if the stars align and you are in that one in a million scenario that you KNOW it would be safe to render aid, don't get caught NOT rendering aid.

 

[Stevew]

Thats how I feel also but it doesn't matter what we think its all up to lawyers and juries. In my opinion if I shoot then I'm not about to turn around and try to save them, because I shot for the purpose of them trying to hurt me and my family.

Stevew,
How did that court case end up?

I knew someone was going to ask that. I almost didn't make the post because I can't remember the outcome. Her husband was still conscious and she was scared he would grab her. It was a FL case. If I could safely provide aid I would. I am just saying this because I would provide aid if I was involved in a auto acciedent. I would provide aid only if I could safely do so. In a shooting my purpose would be to stop a threat. Once I accomplished that, my objectives would change. I am required to maintain CPR/ firstaid quals, not an EMT. Not trying to sway anyone opinion, just what I would do. Does an EMT have any requirement to provide aid to injured people if off duty. What about when on duty. Most EMT calls (except auto accidents) are in bad neighborhoods. You or police might have to stop a threat while on a call. If a police stopped a threat on you while on a call would you provide aid after the threat was stopped?

 

[doctruptwn]

Basically there is some factor in what your local state law says, however, Most state require that YOU have a "duty to Act" to be accountable for not rendering care. ie: If your off duty and involved in a self defense shooting. YOU have "no duty to act" There fore I would agree with everyone else, get yourself safe and call 911.

 

[CarryOrDie]

It all depends on the state. Some states require you render aid to the best of your ability. But if the best of your ability is to say "Scene Safety" and retreat, then you have used your skills as an EMT.

 

[ScubaDuba]

CarryorDie stated it well. I've been a Paramedic for 15 years. I don't see as how that changes my obligations as a human being at all. If it's safe to do so, I would render aid after I stopped the threat. If it's not safe, I would seek safety.

 

[Superhouse 15]

I have never found a good answer to this question. I think it will be a lose / lose situation for us professionals. Give care and the BG's counsel will argue you made things worse intentionally, causing his death or mental anguish or whatever. Don't help and counsel will argue it contributed to the BG's death/mental anguish/disability. I think the best option is to be able to articulate to a jury why you did (or didn't do) what you did. All EMT students can repeat the "Scene Safety" statement. I think any EMT instructor who might be called as an expert would say that an unsafe scene is the first thing an EMT considers, and that not approaching an unsafe scene is the prudent thing to do and is the national standard of care.

I do know a medic who shot a lady onscene. Many years ago, decades before I became a paramedic. One half of a domestic charged him and his patient with a knife. He drew a Charter Arms .38 and shot her. Worked both patients, the assailant he shot died. He was fired but later won a settlement against his employer. Seems they had no rule that said he couldn't carry. It was a private ambulance service. He was never charged with a crime or sued.

ETA: Congrats on EMT school and good luck on Paramedic. The jump from technician to clinician will give you several eye-opening moments.

 

[NC Bullseye]

One other scenario I've heard from the MMQB's is that if you do render aid after a self defense shooting the assailant's legal council approaches it as that you realized that you were wrong in using deadly force and were trying to save the "victim" after you realized you goofed.

Not a valid argument but we all know what a jury of your peers REALLY means.

 

[pschultheis]

This is interesting, I would not personally offer first aid to a person who must have been threatening the life of me or my loved ones.

 

[bakes]

I'm a medic,

I don't feel that I can honestly say that a threat no longer exists...

Maybe the BG is laying there waiting for you to get closer to harm you?...

 

[HardCorps79]

Two words to solve this conundrum:
Shot placement.

:brutal7:

 

[Ski]

If you are involved in a self defense shooting remember:

You are an EMT not LE. You have not gone through the training to safely ensure a downed assailant is disarmed and no longer a threat.

You are also no longer a disinterested party. You are most likely in the middle of an adrenalin dump with only gross motor skills working and you need to maintain the area as safe until LE arrives.

Don't get tunnel vision on one assailant, keep watch for a partner that may not be obvious yet.

Any treatment you render may be misconstrued as detrimental if things go bad for the bad guy.

Maintain your safety and the safety of others in the immediate area and wait for help to arrive. Keep your distance from the assailant. Don't forget to reholster or lay your handgun down upon arrival of LE. If you can be on the phone prior to their arrival you can identify yourself a little easier.

Well said.

 

[Stevew]

Two words to solve this conundrum:
Shot placement.

:brutal7:

That will do it.

 

[wormtown]

Back in the day (about 20 years ago now) I was an EMT in a bad part of a big city that had a much higher gun violence rate than it does now. We were not allowed to carry firearms or knives on duty. We did carry maglights and heavy clipboards that were sometimes useful for other than their intended purposes.
More importantly, we NEVER got out of the bus if the PD weren't already onscene. In fact we would circle if needed. No lights on inside the ambulance either. We took a couple of potshots to the bus over the years, though it was never clear if it was aimed at us or random. Some wore body armor. I couldn't afford it at the time. Even given all that, I never had a situation where being armed would have been helpful.
Later after I moved to a more suburban setting that was supposedly safer, there was a much lighter police and fire presence for support and we were often alone onscene, and though we never had an issue, I felt more vulnerable, and would have carried if it were at all permissible.
Remember, your most important two assets armed or not will be your SA and your radio.

It was great work, but poorly paid, and tough on the back (we only had the old Ferno model 30 that had to be lifted manually, and of course, only fat people live in 3rd floor walkups). Good luck, stay safe.

 

[kmajors]

The best medicine in a firefight is lead.

If you shoot, withdraw and call 911.

Any other action you take as a "caregiver" will be used against you by any lawyer worth his salt.