[MadDogDan]

I have carried a 3\" Kimber Ultra Carry for the past five years. I just got a new FN Five-seveN in 5.7x28 and I am waiting for my Blade-Tech holster to arrive so I can use it for CCW and retire my Kimber (for a while) to my safe. I know there is a lot of hype about this round going through body armor but remember all the hype when Glocks first came out? Everyone was saying they are plastic guns and will make it through metal detectors. If you listened to all the hype everyone on all flights would sneek them on planes and nobody would be safe. Seems like the crazy anti\'s and liberal media are at it again.

I have read a few accounts by police departments around the country and they have encountered some good results with one shot kills of bad guys. FN says the round was developed to penetrate heavy clothing or body armor and shread internals without exiting the body. They say it was developed specifically to avoid over penetration. Some people say the 5.7x28 round is a glorified 22lr but how many 22lr\'s do you know that travel at 2,035 fps and have almost as many foot pounds of energy as 45 ACP FMJ (385 foot pounds)?

Any thoughts???
MadDog :rock:

 

[Hitman]

This was taken from TacticalForums:

Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol.

I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4’s. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP’s fired from our duty 1911’s crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure.

Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90.

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun\". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.

--Fackler M: \"Errors & Omissions\", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.

--Fackler M: \"More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90\", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.

--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.

--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.

--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

--Roberts G: “Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.”, AFTE Journal. In Press.

The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and military special operations applications, such as a good 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP JHP, the better 5.56 x 45 mm BTHP/JSP loads, as well as 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to avoid adoption of this weapon system.

 

[Pylon]

Hitman, thats a fantastic ariticle.

To the poster, i think thats kinda cool your gonna be packing the FiveseveN. Not many people own that gun let alone CCW it. I\'ll bet its a toughy to conceal. I\'ve only seen pictures of it but from everything i\'ve read people say its rather diificult to conceal.

As for balistics, i wouldn\'t worry about it too much. I mean, a few .22\'s into someone\'s COM is still gonna really REALLY mess them up....and if that doesn\'t work there is always toping it off with a shot to the head :O

 

[APachon]

pylon, a gun shop by me has two. They are smaller than Govt 1911\'s. I have heard ti fired and it does sound menacing. I have heard ammo is hard to come by though. Are dies available for this pistol/caliber yet?

~A

Originally posted by Pylon
Hitman, thats a fantastic ariticle.

To the poster, i think thats kinda cool your gonna be packing the FiveseveN. Not many people own that gun let alone CCW it. I\'ll bet its a toughy to conceal. I\'ve only seen pictures of it but from everything i\'ve read people say its rather diificult to conceal.

As for balistics, i wouldn\'t worry about it too much. I mean, a few .22\'s into someone\'s COM is still gonna really REALLY mess them up....and if that doesn\'t work there is always toping it off with a shot to the head :O

 

[MadDogDan]

Pylon -

Don\'t believe everything you hear or read. The FiveseveN is just a little smaller than any of my full sized 1911\'s and I have no problem concealing any of them. It also weighs exactly half of my empty stainless 1911 when it is fully loaded with 20 rounds of 5.7\'s. The article Hitman posted looks impressive and I would have believed it until I read a couple of articles from Police Departments that have actual one shot kill experience with this round. I am a firm believer in the 45 ACP round and 357 magnum, that is why I will still carry both of them but I do like the freedom of different carry guns depending on my daily attire and this will now include the FiveseveN. Besides, despite what the detractors say, how many .17 Hornets have 395 ft. lbs. of energy behind them? For that matter how many pistol rounds besides the 45 ACP, 40 S&W, or 10mm have 395 ft. lbs. or better???

MadDog :lol:

 

[MadDogDan]

APachon -

My local shop has 5.7x28 rounds for $18.00 for a box of 50. That isn\'t cheap but not outragious either. I am saving the brass because Lee has Dies for the 5.7 (can\'t find any loading data for the 5.7 but I am sure it will be published soon).

MadDog :lol:

 

[Pylon]

ah, so they are smaller? How about thiness? How thin are the FiveseveN\'s as oppose to say....a 1911? Glock?

Thickness is what seems to be the hardest part of concealing afterall. Well, either that or grip length

 

[APachon]

Pylon, it is thinner than a HK USP.45.

MadDog the shop here is charging almost double for what you are paying per box. MadDog, you could take a buller puller and try and back door a recipe for the FiveseveN. Just an idea.

Nevertheless, good luck and congrats on the new pistol purchase, Pics and a range report would be nice.

~A

Originally posted by Pylon
ah, so they are smaller? How about thiness? How thin are the FiveseveN\'s as oppose to say....a 1911? Glock?

Thickness is what seems to be the hardest part of concealing afterall. Well, either that or grip length

 

[MadDogDan]

Pylon -

The overall length of the 5.7 is 1/8\" inch shorter then a full sized 1911 measuring from muzzle to beavertail. The height is exactly the same. The front half of the slide is exactly the same thickness as a 1911 but the back half flares and is just a little thicker then a 1911, but still about 1/16\" thinner than a Glock. The grip portion of the frame is exactly the same thickness as a 1911 with standard grips and again about 1/16\" thinner than a Glock\'s grip section. The only thing strange about it is the length of the grip measuring from the frontstrap to the backstrap. It has to be longer because of the long bottleneck rounds. The grip does however fit my hand better than any other gun I have with the exception of a couple pair of Hogue wood finger groove grips on a couple of my revolvers.

You may not want to carry one of these but I am positive you will love shooting one. If a shop in your area has one at a good price you should get it just for the \"fun factor\".

MadDog :rock:

 

[Pylon]

hehe, yes i would deffinitely get one if given the oppertunity. Though i haven\'t ever seen one in a shop around the Memphis, TN area. I would dedffinitely have to fondle it a bit though if i ever saw it because i just can\'t seem to afford one right now

Which makes me think, has anyone had any problems shooting this gun at any indoor ranges? Seeing that this gun is made for AP seems to be something of concern to me. As cool as it might be to look at, i wouldn\'t wanna be putting nice clean 5.7mm holes in my Jeep outside of the range now ....among other things

 

[APachon]

Discount firearms here in Vegas allows them to be fired here.

what are all the switches along the left side??? I would be curious to holstering it and those switches being moved. Is that a viable concern??

~A

 

[MadDogDan]

APachon -

I am not sure what \"switches on the left side\" you are talking about. The only thing on the left side besides the ambi-safety is the slide stop and the take-down leaver. The slide stop cannot be moved unless the slide is liked back (like any other auto-loader). The ambi-safety is very flat and will not engage or disengage unless you want it to. The take-down leaver used to take the slide or upper half off the frame cannot be moved unless you retract the slide 1/4\", push the lever in, and then push it back. Removing the slide takes about 10 seconds but cannot be done by accident. It is easier to move or snick a safety off by accident on a 1911 then it is on a FiveseveN. There is no concern holstering the FiveseveN with a BladetTech holster. I can\'t speak for any other holster manufacturers as the Blade-Tech is the only one I have used for this gun.

MadDog :rock:

 

[APachon]

MadDog, thanks for the clarification. Having little hand time with this pistol shows my ignorance. Thank you.

~A

 

[nf9648]

I have the means to carry it, but the 1911 takes precedence.

Normally both the gun and mag pouches would ride behind the hip, but they are in front for the pic.

 

[MadDogDan]

nf9648 -

Who makes the mag pouch you have? I don\'t carry a spare mag because I haven\'t found any pouches that I like. Besides, if my primary mag doesn\'t fail, I should be able to get the job done with 20 rounds.

MadDog

 

[nf9648]

All my leather was made here...

 

[KC135]

Info net

Usualy get pretty good info from some people I know, yet have heard nothing on the use of this round.

Perhaps a little who and where MadDogDan would help us.

 

[MadDogDan]

KC135 -

I am not sure I know what you are asking by \"who & where\" or what is the \"purpose\" of this round. Are you asking if it is a hunting, self defense or plinking round? Please elaborate.

MadDog :question:

 

[KC135]

Originally posted by MadDogDan
KC135 -

I am not sure I know what you are asking by \"who & where\" or what is the \"purpose\" of this round. Are you asking if it is a hunting, self defense or plinking round? Please elaborate.

MadDog :question:

Who and where has this round been used successfully on people. Thanks.

 

[Hitman]

Originally posted by MadDogDan
KC135 -

I am not sure I know what you are asking by \"who & where\" or what is the \"purpose\" of this round. Are you asking if it is a hunting, self defense or plinking round? Please elaborate.

MadDog :question:

He is asking you for a link to prove the stopping ability of this round and/or which PD\'s use thse pistols for duty use.