[CR Williams]

I wrote about PDWs for the rest of us...I call them C-PDWs...in my fourth book. This article I was asked to write for the blog expands a little bit on that subject for both police and the rest of us:

https://thetacticalhermit.com/2016/08/07/dealing-with-armored-attackers-the-police-pdw-concept/

 

[5lima30ret]

Nice, well thought out article! :35:

 

[sct5024]

Cops and precision shooting with select fire weapons... let's see how that works out.

 

[Havok]

police dont need select fire weapons.

 

[HotGuns]

police dont need select fire weapons.

I'll bet the cops that participated in the Hollywood shootout would argue with that.

 

[BadgerJ]

Yeah, nice article but if you talk to military guys who have been in fights like this they say two things. LEO are not using the right tactics, namely seeking cover. They're standing out in the open yelling things to each other. They also are going INTO these known danger situations with just handguns, not a rifle.

This article seems to suggest that it's more and better ammo sprayed down range. That's not the answer.

 

[CR Williams]

Yeah, nice article but if you talk to military guys who have been in fights like this they say two things. LEO are not using the right tactics, namely seeking cover. They're standing out in the open yelling things to each other. They also are going INTO these known danger situations with just handguns, not a rifle.

This article seems to suggest that it's more and better ammo sprayed down range. That's not the answer.

If you think that then you've drawn the wrong conclusions from it. Not my point in the writing.

 

[CR Williams]

I'll bet the cops that participated in the Hollywood shootout would argue with that.

I share the opinion that police don't need select-fire weapons. The ones in the Hollywood shootout weren't in trouble because they didn't have select fire, they were in trouble because they couldn't get through the armor with what they had. One of the suspects was taken down with an aimed shot to the ankle fired under a car. No full-auto needed for that or the other one.

Even the military doesn't encourage anybody to go to full auto. That setting has only limited uses in real life.

 

[CR Williams]

For all that Captain Pope made good arguments I do believe that his advocation of PDWs for police is an over-reaction. Besides that, the police don't need dedicated weapons of that nature to deal with the threat of armored attackers. What they do need we probably will not see any time soon, which is a change in the training. That alone would greatly increase survivability of officers. I don't believe the admininstrations involved will go for it, though.

 

[ghost tracker]

Whichever way it goes, I just trust (hope, pray?) the decision is made based on LEO & public safety, grounded soundly in real-world experience, period. Not some knee-jerk, politically correct/expedient, emotionally over-hyped, media-fanned...FRENZY! :yup:

 

[Havok]

Yeah, nice article but if you talk to military guys who have been in fights like this they say two things. LEO are not using the right tactics, namely seeking cover. They're standing out in the open yelling things to each other. They also are going INTO these known danger situations with just handguns, not a rifle.

This article seems to suggest that it's more and better ammo sprayed down range. That's not the answer.

This is true. The biggest problem that I see is a lot of police think they can compensate for a lack of training with purchased equipment. Or otherwise just want to buy cool gear, then make their tactics revolve around that, which is completely backwards. I obviously am not familiar with every department, but I have noticed this many times.

I'll bet the cops that participated in the Hollywood shootout would argue with that.

I dont mind if they argue it. They still dont need it.

I share the opinion that police don't need select-fire weapons. The ones in the Hollywood shootout weren't in trouble because they didn't have select fire, they were in trouble because they couldn't get through the armor with what they had. One of the suspects was taken down with an aimed shot to the ankle fired under a car. No full-auto needed for that or the other one.

Even the military doesn't encourage anybody to go to full auto. That setting has only limited uses in real life.

This is also true. I very rarely ever clicked my M4 over to auto for anything more than some fun at the range. Its not as useful as most people think.

 

[ghost tracker]

I agree Havok. A hat don't make ya'...a cowboy! I see all these overweight, high-cholesterol, COPD-impaired county deputies dressed in full swat-gear with muted insignias, black fatigues, airborne-tucked into combat boots, wearing utility belts that would embarrass Batman, and they couldn't run 100 yards over a week-long vacation with their skivvies on fire. Gear over-bought on State/Federal Grant Programs to look ready for "anything" eventually piles-up until (IMHO) you can actually accomplish...nothing. Please don't misunderstand, I GREATLY support, respect & admire their chosen career. Yet it's tough to admire & respect an individual, and pass that viewpoint on generationally, who clearly doesn't respect them self. It's the man/woman that makes the badge, not vice-versa. :yup:

Oh heck y'all, pardon the RANT! :soapbox:

 

[5lima30ret]

I'll bet the cops that participated in the Hollywood shootout would argue with that.

Or the FBI Miami shootout!

 

[HotGuns]

Here's the thing that people are forgetting.

The threats of today are not the threats that our fathers faced.

Wth the world getting stupider by the day, and ISLAM on the rise with the civilization jihad, how many times have we heard of random shooters with AK's wanting to die for allah?

Its only going to get worse. Yeah, many will argue that cops don't need select fire weapons and until a few years ago those arguments had merit. I've had many discussions with old retired cops, some of which never actually had to resort to a long arm to remedy the situation. Today... not so much.

If some muslim yahoo wants to go to a target rich environment to make a statement, I want to be able to respond like for like with the weapons at least, or have better than what they have.

If people think that is wrong, so be it. They wont be the ones out there responding.

We are either going to have to get on board and recognize this new threat and respond appropriately or just continue to stick our heads in the sand and act like it wont happen here.
We can stay behind the curve or get ahead of it.

 

[sct5024]

I agree Havok. A hat don't make ya'...a cowboy! I see all these overweight, high-cholesterol, COPD-impaired county deputies dressed in full swat-gear with muted insignias, black fatigues, airborne-tucked into combat boots, wearing utility belts that would embarrass Batman, and they couldn't run 100 yards over a week-long vacation with their skivvies on fire. Gear over-bought on State/Federal Grant Programs to look ready for "anything" eventually piles-up until (IMHO) you can actually accomplish...nothing. Please don't misunderstand, I GREATLY support, respect & admire their chosen career. Yet it's tough to admire & respect an individual, and pass that viewpoint on generationally, who clearly doesn't respect them self. It's the man/woman that makes the badge, not vice-versa. :yup:

Oh heck y'all, pardon the RANT! :soapbox:

Entertaining TV is rerunning the ATF abortion in Waco. Someone in charge should have gone to jail for that one. Watching these jack wagons trying to assault a structure as if shiny gear and no training was all they needed. And now, pardon my rant.

 

[Havok]

Here's the thing that people are forgetting.

The threats of today are not the threats that our fathers faced.

Wth the world getting stupider by the day, and ISLAM on the rise with the civilization jihad, how many times have we heard of random shooters with AK's wanting to die for allah?

Its only going to get worse. Yeah, many will argue that cops don't need select fire weapons and until a few years ago those arguments had merit. I've had many discussions with old retired cops, some of which never actually had to resort to a long arm to remedy the situation. Today... not so much.

If some muslim yahoo wants to go to a target rich environment to make a statement, I want to be able to respond like for like with the weapons at least, or have better than what they have.

If people think that is wrong, so be it. They wont be the ones out there responding.

We are either going to have to get on board and recognize this new threat and respond appropriately or just continue to stick our heads in the sand and act like it wont happen here.
We can stay behind the curve or get ahead of it.

Nobody is forgetting that. Who is against officers carrying rifles? Here, we have only said officers dont need select fire weapons because that was mentioned in the article. Yet nothing in your post shows the need for select fire weapons.

Caveat- to be 100% fair, there was a thread about opposition to officers carrying rifles, and I was part of that opposition, but it had to do with an officer wanting a "guns for me but not for thee" exception. In which case, I would be all about him having the gun, IF it were legal for everyone else.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any experience shooting select fire weapons? Other than maybe just going to the range and dumping a mag or something of that sort?

 

[HotGuns]

I've got one and fact of the matter is, I have never had to use it. Hopefully I never do have to use it.

But, if I do need it, knowing the capability of it might be comforting. While I know for a fact that full auto fire is highly overrated, it does have its uses.

 

[rocky]

I'm kind of surprised all Leo don't have rifles. Even back in the 90's more departments around here had AR's or mini 14's. I'm not sure pdw's are really the fix for daily carry , as they are more cumbersome and may be harder to keep on body during hand to hand controlling of subjects.
The majority of Leo go hands on much more than ever to a gun during their careers.

 

[Havok]

I've got one and fact of the matter is, I have never had to use it. Hopefully I never do have to use it.

But, if I do need it, knowing the capability of it might be comforting. While I know for a fact that full auto fire is highly overrated, it does have its uses.

It absolutely has its uses. I also cant remember the last time Ive actually heard of police being up against someone with an automatic weapon. But, aside from the fact that civilians cant buy them(without all the NFA restrictions), and for that reason, I dont think police, or any other special group should be able to. There are also too many officers that have enough problems just using semi auto pistols for me to be comfortable with everyone running around with select fire rifles. I know a few officers that I would feel completely comfortable with having select fire weapons, but I know others that would be itching for the chance to use it when its completely unnecessary.

 

[JAG45]

Hovak, I know Hotguns and he can seem out on the edge at times. And I may not agree with everything he has ever said, but he has good reasons and experience to back his thoughts. I know I would like to have him standing beside me when the boogie man pops up more than most others. I may not change my mind about it but I listen and take it to heart. I have found you are better off not to argue with a man who knows what he is doing until he cross the line you have drawn somewhere.