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Discussion Starter #1
Have noticed that some of you carry "Ball" (FMJ) ammo in your CCW. I'm not being critical but just wondered what was the theory behind this.
 

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I shoot FMJ (Winchester White Box) and carry HP (Remington Golden Saber), religiously.
 

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I have some friends who carry "Ball" ammo in their backup mags on the theory that they might have to get through a car door if the confrontation goes far enough to go to a backup mag. Some folks might also argue that 230gr 45 ball served the country for seven decades so if it ain't broke why fix it? Although I myself would distinguish combat from self defense scenaios on the street. On the street and in close quarters there would seem to be a more distinct danger of the total penetration. I wouldn't worry about any loss of stopping power, but rather a fear that it wouldn't stop...keep on going and injure somebody behind the target.
 

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What's the difference between Winchester White Box and Winchester Red Box?
 

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I'd only carry FMJ ammo if I was worried about an attack from a large animal. I've read that the deep penetration a large bore, FMJ round offers is essential if you're trying to protect yourself from a big critter whose vital organs are shielded by a very thick hide.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
ExSoldier, I may be mistaken but I thought that the reason that the 1911 got such a bad rep. way back when was that the 230 Ball ammo seriously overpenetrated without very much hydrostatic shock(I call it" smack down").I've herd stories of the enemy still being agressive after multiple center of mass hits by the ball ammo. I also believe that there is a very big difference between war/combat use of the .45 and civilian CCW with .45 cal. Ball ammo. My personel opinion is that I will carry the type of CCW ammo that will absolutely kick the crap outta a bad guy. My plans are not to kill car doors. The sanerioes that include shooting back and forth between cars have ,in my humble opinion gone way too far. Also I feel that CCW people will carry anything somewhere between a .22Short and a .500 S&W. They will also carry between 1 and 4 different firearms. (I have a friend that actually carries 3 firearms at all times. FOR ME---- It's one firearm with the type of ammo that will do the very most damage that any ammo will do to stop the agression. If it overly hurts the BG,I really don't care. When I am forced to protect my life and the lives of my family I want to see the air full of red mist. I carry one weapon,a 3' Kimber CDP Ultra II with two(just two) mags. One in the weapon and one in my pocket. The mags only hold 7 rds. In my truck I have 2 loaded mags but they stay in my truck. I am still evaluating ammo but for now the old origional Black Talon and the 230 gr. Hydra-Shock gets my knod. I wanted to use the same ammo that I had been carring in my full size Colt (165gr. Cor-Bon) but it seems to batter the Kimber excessively. I have a very heavy spring and shock buffers installed in my Colt and the Cor-Bon shoots great in it. Most all my practice is two shots on target(double taps). The Cor-Bon is so hot that my times are down and the hits are spaced farther than my standards will allow. I would rather be more accurate and faster with the two shots than use the hotter ammo.---- The above is just one respectful opinion.
 

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Ball in general is a poor performer. If feeding is a problem, use Cor Bon Power ball, or Federal EFMJ.

Car doors?? Again Cor Bon, I like the DPX, but PB will do a good job too.

For information on actual tests, visit stoppingpower.net. Search in 'Test Bed' forum.
 

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I dunno, placement will probably win the day over all else. That being said, I like the Fed Hydra Shock in 185 +p. Just me. Shoots great in my full size 1911's. Would I feel 'under powered' with 230gr fmj's. Naw. And I havent read of too many instances where a properly place 230gr fmj didnt do the trick. We've all heard/ read of nightmare shootings where some methed up 260lbs excon powerlifter is crushing people with a parking meter even after soaking up multiple rounds of (insert caliber/namebrand ammo here). What finally brings them down? Either someone finally gets it together and gets a shotgun, or puts a (insert cal/namebrand here) through the guy's primal brain. Or, the guy drops from hydraulic/musculo-skeletal failure, which may take some time. But, when we examine the multitude of hits that didnt drop him like an extra in a John Woo film, we find they were all peripheral hits. Better said, they didnt disrupt his cns. If our hits do not disrupt the main computer, our adversary is still on his feet. Do (insert cal/brand) hollowpoints do that any better than fmj's? I'm not qualified to say so, but I'd guess if the hp's dont hit the cns, he still aint gonna drop right now. He MAY bleed out quicker IF the hp opened and cut a major area of blood flow. If it didnt, he cant tell the diference between fmj and hp.
As to overpenetration, not many documented accounts of lawfull ccw shoots where the fmj slug went thru and thru its intended target. If it doesnt hit anything to stop it, a hp has just about as good a chance of passing thru.
As to handgun ammo 'kicking the crap outta the bad guy', placement will mean more than type. The few men I've talked to who have shot an adversary, (some of these are leo's, some citizens), tell me you dont get 'red mist', or flailing. You MAY see your opponent's shirt 'jump' at the point of impact. But, no blood gushing, etc. Or, nothing till a second or third hit makes the guy sit down. Handguns suck. Handgun calibers suck. Dont count on them to solve the problem with brute force. Use them as a surgical scalpel, cut what needs to be cut-cns. Be precise, be accurate, be ready to follow up.

Dan
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks Dan-- Your post made a lot of sense and made me think. I also agree in that I wish that all the CCW could carry shotguns. It is a lot better choice for gettin' the BG's attention. I'd like to have a little pistol grip 12" 870 carried in a shoulder rig.Hey,maybe a 8" double !-----
 

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Normally - like many - practice with mostly ball ..... but carry currently in SIG 226 is Gold Dot +P 9mm... 124's IIRC. SP-101 - that has +P Corbon HP 110's. My R9 has std pressure Gold Dot 124's. M28, that has Corbon .357 140's, HP

I make one exception and that is with smaller cals - just occasionally my Bersa Thunder is in fanny pack and that has simple ball ammo - it is less of a prob IMO re overpenetration and I like the extra functional reliability. I am satisfied it would get the job done.
 

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First of all, I never said I used Ball ammo, just that I know folks who do and the reasons they gave for doing so.

I realize that 45 Ball ammo may not be an optimal performer when compared to modern JHP ammo of almost any brand. But JHP is against the Geneva Convention so our troops generally don't use it, although I don't know about SpecOps guys. However, I have heard no complaints from some of the folks I know who crawled cave to cave in Tora Bora. I DID hear several complaints on 9mm ball. 45 Ball served our military rather well since it's inception and I have rarely heard of an FTF Ball ammo, since the 1911 was designed to use this specific ammo. Perhaps an off brand might have a problem here. I'd have to agree with jdsumner's post.
 

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I shoot Golden Saber in most places, except for the firearms in my bedroom. They all shoot ball.

If I get pushed all of the way back towards my safe room, then anything chasing me gets a big hole punched clean through it.

It's my house. I'll fix the drywall.
 

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Can anyone cite a case where Ball overpentrated and hurt a bystander? I know of one case where a 9mm 115 gr. Silvertip didn't quite reach deep enough. That load supposedly penetrates about 12 inches in gelatin. According to The Ammoman website the .45 185 gr. Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket penetrates 12.5 inches. Is that enough? 230 gr. Ball supposedly penetrates about 21 inches.

Let's not assume that 12-14 inches of penetration is going to do the trick most of the time. People are simply bigger & fatter today than they were 10 or 20 years ago when the research was done. Couple that fact with an intervening arm or a scenario in which some 275 pounder has you on the ground about to brain you with his boots and then decide what you really need a bullet to do.

I believe someone posted the story from Iraq about the Army Sergeant who was shot in the face by the thug with the 9mm pistol. It knocked his tooth out and did very little damage due to shallow penetration. What do you want to bet that he was shot with a 124 gr. 9mm Ball round which is the deepest penetrating Ball round of any of the common pistol calibers?

The human body is tough and if you don't have adequate penetration then you've got a big problem.
 

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I use the ball ammo for the range and keep my carry mags filled with Rem Golden Saber HP.... 2 mags with me, and 2 more in the truck. Don't think I would even bother with shooting thru car doors...windows maybe, but not doors....by the way, there were a couple freeway shooting here in Dallas area last year where the occupant was hit by .22 that went thru the side. So I wouldn't discount any caliber for penetration of doors.
 

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hankrearden2005 said:
I believe someone posted the story from Iraq about the Army Sergeant who was shot in the face by the thug with the 9mm pistol. It knocked his tooth out and did very little damage due to shallow penetration. What do you want to bet that he was shot with a 124 gr. 9mm Ball round which is the deepest penetrating Ball round of any of the common pistol calibers?
Actually I'd bet you a dollar the "9mm" he was shot with was a Makarov firing 9x18 now that I think about it. Even .380 is technically "9mm" (9x17).

But you're probably completely right about it being FMJ, but we don't know either way I suppose.

It makes it no less amazing in my book. A .22 to the mouth should kill anyone, and a Makarov catridge is much more potent than a .22.
 

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I believe the Makarov is ballistically midway between a .380 & a standard pressure 9mm.
 

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I was always lead to believe that Ball ammo was issued to the Militaries of the World due to the Geneva Convention and rules of engagement. Ball ammo reduced the hydrostatic shock effect and therefore was more effective on disabling the Enemy rather than killing him. I was lead to believe that an Enemy that was disabled, took more troops to take care of him ( medics, litter bearers etc) than just leave the remains and move on in the battle. Thus, the reason why troops were shot with multiple rounds and kept on fighting.
I have carried and used ball and hollowpoints in many ways. Every other round a Ball or hollowpoint, and then just either or in a full mag. There is plenty of good stuff out there, but you need to practice with different brands and stick with the most reliyable round that suits your weapon's taste. Just my 2 cents worth :biggrin:
 

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CLASS3NH said:
I was always lead to believe that Ball ammo was issued to the Militaries of the World due to the Geneva Convention and rules of engagement. Ball ammo reduced the hydrostatic shock effect and therefore was more effective on disabling the Enemy rather than killing him. I was lead to believe that an Enemy that was disabled, took more troops to take care of him ( medics, litter bearers etc) than just leave the remains and move on in the battle. Thus, the reason why troops were shot with multiple rounds and kept on fighting.
That's what I heard as well. You want to wound the enemy enough to take him out of the fight and the ones tending to him, as well.
 

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CLASS3NH said:
I was always lead to believe that Ball ammo was issued to the Militaries of the World due to the Geneva Convention and rules of engagement......:
Your dead on....Rule # 2

The Rules of War
The first modern international rules of war, known as the Geneva Convention, or Treaty, were made in Geneva, Switzerland, in 1864. This treaty was accepted by all the European countries, by the U.S., and by some countries in Asia and South America. New rules are added as they are needed.

Rule 1: Warring nations cannot use chemical weapons against each other.
Rule 2: The use of expanding bullets or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering is prohibited.
Rule 3: The discharge of projectiles (such as bullets or rockets) from balloons is prohibited.
Rule 4: Prisoners of war must be humanely treated and protected from violence. Prisoners cannot be beaten or used for propaganda purposes (to try to change the way people think about something).
Rule 5: Prisoners of war must give their true name and rank or they will lose their prisoner of war protection.
Rule 6: Nations must follow procedures to identify the dead and wounded and to send information to their families.
Rule 7: Killing anyone who has surrendered is prohibited.
Rule 8: Zones must be set up in fighting areas to which the sick and injured can be taken for treatment.
Rule 9: Special protection from attack is granted to civilian hospitals marked with the Red Cross symbol.
Rule 10: The free passage of medical supplies is allowed.
Rule 11: Shipwrecked members of the armed forces at sea should be taken ashore to safety.
Rule 12: Any army that takes control of another country must provide food to the people in that country.
Rule 13: Attacks on civilians and undefended towns are prohibited.
Rule 14: Enemy submarines cannot sink merchant or business ships before passengers and crews have been saved.
Rule 15: A prisoner can be visited by a representative from his or her country. Prisoners have the right to talk privately without observers.
 
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