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Discussion Starter #1


This seems sort of weird to me.
Notice that this is an actual photo of a HARD bullet strike on a swinging steel plate silhouette target.
Neat Photo but, notice that the bullet has already completely fragmented (really already self~destructed) and the swinging target still remains in its PERFECTLY VERTICAL position.
It (obviously) has not even started to move and the bullet fragments are already spattered in all directions.
I would think that the metal target would at least start moving back as soon as it was impacted. :confused:
Am I wrong about that?
I guess I am. :confused:

Comments?
 

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I'm not a ballistics person, but I do work in photoshop a good deal.

Check out the rough pixelization all over the entire photo. The "bullet fragments" do not have any of this pixelization anywhere.

I have created "fragments" that look exactly like that using the "zoom blur" filter in photoshop.

I'm not saying it's a fake (I can't really see any reason to fake that pic), but it looks like something I could have created on the computer. :)

Here's a link to my personal site. The background resembles the "bullet fragments":
http://pro.alteredcurrent.com

Also, all of that "equal and opposite reaction" stuff I learned in high school doesn't seem to make sense here. The fragments have already traveled several inches, but the spinner hasn't budged. Oh well.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
That's Possible

I know I did enlarge the photo to about double in size & brightened the entire photo a bit. It was not a great quality photo.
I did not add anything to the image or change anything in it though.

Yep, that's what I thought...like those hanging Clacker Balls.
I thought as soon as the plate was struck it would instantly start to move ???
 

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looks fake and does seem liek the target should have moved. Check out ht e greenish haze around the edge of the targt stand. Looks photo shop to me.
 

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The target may have moved somewhat, but from the angle of the photo it's hard to tell. If the mass of the target was signifigantly higher than the mass of the bullet it may not have moved much yet, don't forget we're talking hundreths of a second.
 

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Those little swingin' targets(I have several) are made for .22 Rem fire. The swingers that I have are .250" thick outta some very hard (?) boiler plate. When hit with a .22, the bullet splats and the swinger only moves rearward 30 degrees or so. Also it has allot to do with time of contact(bullet on face of metal). If this is a real photo it could be of a .22 rem fire hyper velocity round (Stinger,etc.) at the exact time of impact. This,just a guess.-----
 

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How do we know the plate hasn’t moved? It's a still picture.

Technically, the motion of the plate depends on the mass of both the plate and the bullet and the bullet’s velocity. If the bullet weighs 230gn, that's .032 lbs. and the plate weighs 10 lbs, the plate has 304 times the mass of the bullet. That means the plate will move 304 times slower than the bullet – that’s only approximate since the plate swings. By conservation of momentum, assuming a 10# plate, a 230 gn bullet with a velocity of 900fps and that it takes 1mS (1/1000 of a second) for the bullet to flatten, the plate will attain a velocity of .00297 fps in that 1 mS. That’s 0.035 inches per second. So, the plate would have only moved about one thirty-second (.03125) of an inch.

I guess that’s a bit techy, so consider this: if a bullet fired from a .50 cal rifle has not quite reached the muzzle brake, the bullet has already traveled probably over 90% of the length of the barrel, how can the muzzle brake can make such a difference if the bullet has already traveled nearly the full length of the barrel? The rifle should have already recoiled by 90% of it’s final recoil, right? Nope.
 

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Aspects of the pic make it seem a possible PhotoShop job but - fragmentation is going to be fast enough that if shutter speed was medium - say 1/125 sec - then blur from fragments could be looking like this.

Even tho the plate is quite thin - as has been mentioned the mass differential is very large - assuming a std 22 lead bullet here ( don't think this is a large cal jacketed) it is IMO very likely that bullet splatter will be extremely rapid and the plate has such inertial mass that its acceleration will be very slow by comparison.

When we shoot steel plates at one club, you can see when watching other shooters a very rapid splatter, some shards even impacting ground before plate has fully been displaced. Inspection of shards also shows a lot of very small elements.

Guessing a time scale - this fragmentaion might be occurring within the first and second millisecond, after which the plate will begin to show some acceleration, tho its mass will have ''absorbed'', or ''dissipated'' some of the energy, as illustrated by the fragmentation event.

On further thought - this pic might well have been sound triggered and so perhaps flash was used - that tho at 1/1000 sec or faster would probably have frozen the blur of fragments - so still some inconsistencies to explain.
 

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Yeah but, edit: if the bullet fragments are traveling at 1000 ft/sec, and the exposure time is 1ms, the fragments would travel 1 foot during the 1 mS exposure - that'd be a blur and the picture looks reasonably close to that. But of course that doesn't mean it's an untouched or fabricated photo, but it seems kinda reasonable.
 

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Agreed Ron - tho these days 1/1,000 is slow for electronic flash - computer flash close up might manage 1/10,000 - thing is the longest ''streak'' is maybe four to five inches long.... so yeah - that fits in with longer exposure time.

Of course - it is possible to ''mix'' exposure such that flash fires at a suitable exposure level at get go (again thinking sound triggering) but shutter still stays open beyond that time.

So, could be a ''mix''. Intriguing anyways.
 

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Chris,
I had to edit my post a bit, but it's pretty much what you said above, just depending on various parameters.

Glad we finally haven't solved this??? :confused:
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Ok

Now you guys are confusing the heckoutta feeble minded QKShooter. :confused:
 

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I doubt that; I haven't seen anything feeble minded about you!
 

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The photo definitely shows photoshop erasure in the green field. How much else is manipulated is difficult to say, but the splash looks artificial. A strobe may have given more definition to the fragments. The bullet and fragments may well be travelling at or greater than the speed of sound, so how can a sound activated camera capture this? The lack of discernable displacement this early after impact would be normal. The recoil of the 50 before the bullet reaches the muzzle brake hasn't displaced the rifle enough to notice. The brake becomes effective almost instantaneously to counter bore thrust.
 

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If you look at each ray separately, they each 'fan out' wider towards the end of each ray. Now that probably would be correct, but towards the wide ends of each 'ray', they are much 'whiter' ie more dense but should be LESS dense at that point compared to when they first left the bullet. That makes it seem again like a reverse 'zoom' effect from a photo pgm.
 
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