Defensive Carry banner
1 - 20 of 37 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A thought that passed through my head last night.. ( I know :oops: )

First a quick info dump for those few of you that may not know what a Binary Trigger is. Short version is that the trigger will allow your gun to fire when it's depressed and then fire again when released...

As we all know, the Binary trigger is considered legal by the ATF. I.E not a machine gun since it requires a specific action per round being discharged...

So now to my thoughts... Has anyone developed or thought about a 3 stage trigger ? In other words a trigger that as you continue to depress it, it will fire up to 3 rounds as you continue. It of course must have the option to be released if you only want 1 or 2 round bursts...

Would this item still fall within the ATF's definition of a single shot trigger just like the binary trigger does ?

Now imagine a 3 stage binary trigger... That's 6 rounds for every full depression and release of the trigger....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,462 Posts
I think the ATF would consider that pushing the envelope of what is acceptable.
That type of trigger would require a lot of practice so as to fire off just the amount of rounds you want fired.
Would you find that trigger on long guns as well as pistols?
Would adrenaline rush cause a pretty fast mag dump?
How would recoil affect accuracy of secondary and tertiary shots?
Interesting concept.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
38,196 Posts
A thought that passed through my head last night.. ( I know :oops: )

First a quick info dump for those few of you that may not know what a Binary Trigger is. Short version is that the trigger will allow your gun to fire when it's depressed and then fire again when released...

As we all know, the Binary trigger is considered legal by the ATF. I.E not a machine gun since it requires a specific action per round being discharged...

So now to my thoughts... Has anyone developed or thought about a 3 stage trigger ? In other words a trigger that as you continue to depress it, it will fire up to 3 rounds as you continue. It of course must have the option to be released if you only want 1 or 2 round bursts...

Would this item still fall within the ATF's definition of a single shot trigger just like the binary trigger does ?

Now imagine a 3 stage binary trigger... That's 6 rounds for every full depression and release of the trigger....
A solution to a problem that doesn't exist until it is implemented, at which point it will become a problem for which the solution is quite simple.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
A solution to a problem that doesn't exist until it is implemented, at which point it will become a problem for which the solution is quite simple.
LOL... I know... Hey, never said it was a GOOD idea.... Just a thought for a fun discussion... I've often thought about getting a GAT Crank for my Ruger 10/22 as well....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,152 Posts
You can only fire one round for each action of the trigger, legally. Unless it is a class 3.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43,531 Posts
Just a bad idea.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,069 Posts
To be quite honest, I don't see how bump stocks are classified as "machine guns" while binary triggers are not:

Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

The "release of the trigger" is another single function of the trigger? Odd. Once you pull a trigger, it will be released. The pull and release seem to be one function.

The bump stock only causes a user to pull the trigger faster.

Now that the incoherence of the ATF rules has been established, I submit the "Trinary" trigger @Mike in Texas proposes is less of a machine gun than the binary trigger. Why? Each "shot stage" can be controlled by a single pull. You want one shot, pull to the one shot stage. You want two shots, two pulls - the first to the one shot stage, the second to the second shot stage. Three - the third single pull to the three shot stage. In other words, the trinary trigger has three discrete single functions stacked on top of each other. The binary will fire upon release.

As long as the pulls are discrete and controllable (i.e, can't do a 30 round mag dump with 30 "micro pull" stages), I don't see how a trinary trigger is a machine gun.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,069 Posts
You can only fire one round for each action of the trigger, legally. Unless it is a class 3.
Yeah. Try to make sense of the binary ruling, and then compare it to my interpretation. My interpretation is more consistent with the definition of "machine gun" than the ATF's on the binary trigger.

Just a bad idea.
Actually, it's a good idea; it's just a bad law and outcome-based rules implementation by an administrative agency.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,069 Posts
What would help with the trinary trigger is a discrete "reset" after each pull stage, but the reset does not move the trigger back; an internal mechanism resets the sear. So perhaps you have a multi-sear enagement trigger, so that a "single pull" from a tactile reset is established after each shot.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,152 Posts
Yeah. Try to make sense of the binary ruling, and then compare it to my interpretation. My interpretation is more consistent with the definition of "machine gun" than the ATF's on the binary trigger.



Actually, it's a good idea; it's just a bad law and outcome-based rules implementation by an administrative agency.
But your interpretation differs from the legal definition.
 

·
Registered
Northwest Oregon
Joined
·
21,187 Posts
We would practice with a BAR in Viet Nam to see how few rounds we could shoot with one trigger pull. I mostly got off three shots and sometimes two. Never just one. A Marine Major could do two shots and frequently one shot.

There is a 99.9999944% chance the BATFE would designate it a machine gun.
 
  • Like
Reactions: demanic

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,069 Posts
But your interpretation differs from the legal definition.
Just following the ATF lead. Depends of the definition of a "single function" of the trigger. What he proposes is a trigger with three distinct single functions. No more radical than the ATF's decision that pulling a trigger is a single function, and releasing the trigger is a single function.

Were this trigger produced, I'm sure the ATF would define it as a "machine gun."

My point is not so much whether the trigger is a machine gun, but the lunacy of the arbitrary and capricious interpretations by the ATF.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,509 Posts
To be quite honest, I don't see how bump stocks are classified as "machine guns" while binary triggers are not:

Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

The "release of the trigger" is another single function of the trigger? Odd. Once you pull a trigger, it will be released. The pull and release seem to be one function.

The bump stock only causes a user to pull the trigger faster.

Now that the incoherence of the ATF rules has been established, I submit the "Trinary" trigger @Mike in Texas proposes is less of a machine gun than the binary trigger. Why? Each "shot stage" can be controlled by a single pull. You want one shot, pull to the one shot stage. You want two shots, two pulls - the first to the one shot stage, the second to the second shot stage. Three - the third single pull to the three shot stage. In other words, the trinary trigger has three discrete single functions stacked on top of each other. The binary will fire upon release.

As long as the pulls are discrete and controllable (i.e, can't do a 30 round mag dump with 30 "micro pull" stages), I don't see how a trinary trigger is a machine gun.
Bump stocks are not machine guns even by the ATFs' definition of auto and semi auto. It fires one round per trigger pull.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bad Bob

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,991 Posts
As you noted binary and the like are not legally as of right now full auto as they only fire one round per trigger pull ( and well relse ) meaning legally the trigger is use per each shot ... A three round burst etc would def make it a full auto .. And I dont think there is a way to make a semi auto trigger stay semi auto and get off three shots in a semi auto only manner at least saftly .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,372 Posts
Legalities aside, is it even doable? The time that it takes for me to squeeze the trigger is less time than it takes for the action to cycle 3 times.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,650 Posts
To be quite honest, I don't see how bump stocks are classified as "machine guns" while binary triggers are not:
Because the Las Vegas shooter did not have any binary triggers, but he did have bump stocks, although we don't know if he actually used them in the shooting. And Trump did not order the ATF to exceed their authority and ban binary triggers like he did bump stocks, even though ATF testified before Congress three times they did not have the authority to do so.

Now that regulatory "precedent" is being used to ban AR pistol braces and 80% lower builds. All because it has been shown that a president can order the ATF to exceed their authority and they will get away with it in the courts. So the answer to your question is public opinion and Trump. And BTW, I voted for him...twice. But he screwed up on that, big time.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,069 Posts
Because the Las Vegas shooter did not have any binary triggers, but he did have bump stocks, although we don't know if he actually used them in the shooting. And Trump did not order the ATF to exceed their authority and ban binary triggers like he did bump stocks, even though ATF testified before Congress three times they did not have the authority to do so.

Now that regulatory "precedent" is being used to ban AR pistol braces and 80% lower builds. All because it has been shown that a president can order the ATF to exceed their authority and they will get away with it in the courts. So the answer to your question is public opinion and Trump. And BTW, I voted for him...twice. But he screwed up on that, big time.

Oh, I completely understand how the ATF arrived at the decision. I'm just speaking from the frame of mind of disinterested interpretation of the rules and statutes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,650 Posts
Legalities aside, is it even doable? The time that it takes for me to squeeze the trigger is less time than it takes for the action to cycle 3 times.
Jerry Miculek has a YouTube video where he compared firing rate between a bump stock and a regular single action trigger. He was able to outshoot a bump stock using a regular trigger.

The ATF will likely ban Jerry Miculek.
 
1 - 20 of 37 Posts
Top