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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Credit To David Crane

"Basically, police and CCW civilians need pistol ammo that will defeat the latest bullet-resistant vests/body armor and deploy properly in soft tissue. They also need rifle ammo that will penetrate the latest vehicle hard armor protection technologies and effectively deploy inside the target sitting inside. I see both police officers and citizen CCW's as having an equal need for this special purpose ammo, post 9/11. We're living in a different time now, and we need both police AND CCW civilians to be equipped with the latest weapon and ammunition technology, so they can effectively engage immediate and dangerous threats IMMEDIATELY, i.e. AS SOON AS they arise. The police simply cannot handle this task by themselves as, most of the time, they will not be there when the violence starts, or in time to positively affect the outcome before innocent people are severely injured or killed. That's why it's up to licensed CCW civilians to help law enforcement officers with this task."

Read The Entire Article Written By David Crane
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Personal Note From QKShooter~~~~
It is not a good idea these day to remain "Too Closed Minded" & "STUCK" on tried and true old bullet technology.
I am TRYING to stay "up to date" and on top of it all.
Our Military, Police, & Air Marshall demands for more effective small arms ammunition & our ongoing domestic "War On Terror" have kicked things into ultra~high~gear concerning Research & Development of new bullet materials & configurations that will be more versatile and effective in more types of confrontational situations.
My gut feeling is that the next five years are going to be an amazing time for exotic & specialty bullet/cartridge selection.
OF COURSE...some will be EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE...some will be average & some will "Dud Out" right away.
Hopefully, this forum will be able to sort out the Trash From The Treasure concerning the new & revolutionary ammunition that will be popping up & WE WILL CONTINUE TO BE right on top of our Personal Self~Defense Game!
 

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Agree....advances in technology coming down the road will improve design and function in cartridge and firearm production.

I just hope that technology creates a way to penetrate the most impervious barrier know to man....

Chuck (the Schmuck) Schumer's illogical rhetoric :1saufen:

This ammo will be branded with the "Cop-Killer" label so quickly it will make your head spin! :angryfire
 

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So you all really want ammo in the hands of others, that you cannot hide from???

You might want to be careful what you wish for.

How can "this forum" sort the good from the bad when "this forum" does not do testing?

Last, know several LEOs, and do not know any that want ammo in their gun that will penetrate the vest they are wearing.
 

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very tight constraints for sales should be on these bulets. Same as AP bullets. Backstops and beyond your target is difficult enough now in uran areas, the added penetration for CCW seems like a bad idea.
 

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Its a case of the Red Queen. Lets hope the good guys get access before the bad guys.

Re testing, I think QK meant that forumites will find research and report back.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Kc

Unfortunately technology can never be uninvented.
We will never be going back to the bow & arrow for self~defense.
The search for more effective & destructive projectiles has been going on for centuries now.
Usually, it's a case of "You either jump on the wagon or you surely get left behind."
A lot of good police officers were killed because "the powers that were" never realized (for years) that the .38 Special revolver had become totally inadequate for police work.
I cannot imagine that any LEO would not want ammunition that will penetrate body armor since many of the worst of the bad guys are all wearing it now.
The future terrorists (that are not suicide bombers) will for sure be wearing body armor.
I don't think that Law Enforcement Officers should hafta run down to a gun shop & BORROW five assault rifles in order to take out spastic murderers wearing body armor & armed with fully automatic weapons.
Remember THAT real life scenario?
Horrific events like that are going to be increasingly more common.

Search Ebay for Body Armor...I just did & came up with about 600 pieces that are for sale this week.
That was in a search for "Body Armor" & I didn't even bother searching for "Bullet Proof Vest" ~
Every LEO that is facing a deadly perp should assume that the BG is wearing body armor & should be prepared to instantly tactically switch methodology if that is the case.
Body armor is not the security blanket that it once was. That is a sad reality.

I am not finished with my reply to you but, I am BBQing tonight & My Charcoal Awaits. More Later QKShooter
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Addition:

I honestly don't think that there is anything in my thread that needs to be defended but, I'll defend it anyway since one thing that I am decently capable of is mustering an adequate defense.
My thread is honestly not about what I personally would wish for....or what I would not wish for.
Bullet Technology will move forward no matter if I wish it would or it would not.
In fact...I could do more than just "wish" & I could make a phone call to _____ and say:
"This Is QKShooter & I Really Want You Guys To Halt Development Of Your Blended Metal & Body Armor Piercing Bullets," and that will not do much good either. The wheel forever turns and it is naive for both Law Enforcement and Concealed Carry Citizens to assume that the bad guys will stagnate while we sit on our hands.
If I could "wish" for anything...I would wish that sophisticated technology and superior weaponry and body armor would forever stay in only the hands of the good guys. That is not a very realistic wish though. Druggies laden with drug money already have laser sight equipped weapons so any LEO these days that is banking on body armor over training, teamwork, & technology is living in a dream world. A head shot is an EASY THING for a killer to make these days...AKA pull the trigger when the red dot is where you want it to be. One advantage that LEOs will always have over BGs & "criminal types" is that BGs are (for the most part) lazy, unskilled and ill trained. The entire face of police work is changing & modern, advanced LEOs are staying technologically superior & (out of necessity) are really way more like soldiers than they are like Barney Fife. It is called "Survival Of The Fittest" and it is almost as necessary for the defensively armed citizen as it is for LEOs and S.O.T.F. is as relevant now as it was before the Ice Age.
I am wandering too far away from the subject of Blended Metal bullets & I don't want to go Off Topic. But, please know that I sure know that I don't know everything about everything and anybody can always correct me when I'm wrong & I sure will listen.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
TwoRavens ~~~~ Thank You!

I just hafta put that here on the forum record. Thanks!

The Red Queen Principle
for an evolutionary system, continuing development is needed just in order to maintain its fitness relative to the systems it is co-evolving with

This principle was proposed by the evolutionary biologist L. van Valen (1973), and is based on the observation to Alice by the Red Queen in Lewis Carroll's "Through the Looking Glass" that "in this place it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."
Since every improvement in one species will lead to a selective advantage for that species, variation will normally continuously lead to increases in fitness in one species or another. However, since in general different species are coevolving, improvement in one species implies that it will get a competitive advantage on the other species, and thus be able to capture a larger share of the resources available to all. This means that fitness increase in one evolutionary system will tend to lead to fitness decrease in another system. The only way that a species involved in a competition can maintain its fitness relative to the others is by in turn improving its design.

The most obvious example of this effect are the "arms races" between predators and prey, where the only way predators can compensate for a better defense by the prey (e.g. rabbits running faster) is by developing a better offense (e.g. foxes running faster). In this case we might consider the relative improvements (running faster) to be also absolute improvements in fitness.

However, the example of trees shows that in some cases the net effect of an "arms race" may also be an absolute decrease in fitness. Trees in a forest are normally competing for access to sunlight. If one tree grows a little bit taller than its neighbours it can capture part of their sunlight. This forces the other trees in turn to grow taller, in order not to be overshadowed. The net effect is that all trees tend to become taller and taller, yet still gather on average just the same amount of sunlight, while spending much more resources in order to sustain their increased height. This is an example of the problem of suboptimization: optimizing access to sunlight for each individual tree does not lead to optimal performance for the forest as a whole.

In sum, in a competitive world, relative progress ("running") is necessary just for maintenance ("staying put").

In its emphasis on the stress that necessarily accompanies evolutionary development, the Red Queen Principle is related to the generalized "Peter Principle".

Reference:
Van Valen L. (1973): "A New Evolutionary Law", Evolutionary Theory 1, p. 1-30.

Copyright© 1993 Principia Cybernetica - Referencing this page
 

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It's not just bullets per se but actual different cartridges. Some won't survive the transition into the twenty-first century any more than widespread use of black powder shells survived the transition into the twentieth.

Body armor penetration means small and fast.
 

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QC, No need to defend, but I choose to disagree with You. IMO:

1) You underrate our LEOs.

2) you overrate the bad guys.

3) Do not think you talk to a lot of current LEOs.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Kc135

We'll agree to disagree for sure.
I'm only sorry that you seem to be such a man of so few words.
Because...you are pulling statements out of thin air & I have absolutely no exactly idea how you have reached the above three conclusions.

(1) ~ I hold Law enforcement and police officers (in general) in the highest regard. My forum record backs that up. I guarantee that you will not find EVEN ONE past or previous negative or Anti~LEO statement made by me on this forum or anywhere else on the web. I am an extremely strong supporter of my local P. department.
In fact, I would challenge you to go back and search my 1,700 previous posts and I will give $20.00 for every negative comment or thought I have made about Police Officers on this forum.
You'll be a very poor man by the time you are finished searching.

(2) ~ I live in the real world. I read three newspapers every day & I am constantly searching the web for information. I do not think that I overrate "Bad Guys" ~ I guess you are aware of the recent highly sophisticated & synchronized bombing incident that just occurred in London? None of those "Bad Guys" have been caught & the death toll will now top 50 & with "How Many?" injured? 700+ Welcome to the future KC ~ The future is NOW ~ We can probably expect more of the same here in the United States.

(3) Hummmmm.....Let me see....When WAS the last time that I talked to a cop??? Why Gee Willikers...It was this very evening and right at my own home.
The food was great...The company was better...The conversation was good...The weather was HOT but, The beer was Ice Cold.

So...basically all that I know for sure is that you disagree with me & that is just peachy~keen with me. To each cat...his own rat.

I respect your right to have your opinion.

Stay Safe & Peace...through superior firepower.
 

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QK,You sure use a lot of bandwidth to disagree!

You manage to change my statements in an interesting way.

I said nothing about a lack respect for LEOs, and while I do not read but two newspapers a day and watch almost no television, I still manage to have an understanding of terrorist, and common criminals.

Really QK, yes I know you are a senior moderator--but you really waste you sarcasm and chiches on me.
 

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LeMas and Bulmer have a reputation out there as Snake Oil salesmen. Think about their claims for a minute - handgun bullets that are armor piercing, frangible and sensitive to a 10 degree F differential in their target media?

As I remember my Engineering Thermodynamics, conductive heat flow varies as the difference in degrees Kelvin between the two bodies involved to the fourth power (T1 to the fourth)-(T2 to the fourth). Kelvin is the absolute scale, so you take the Centigrade scale and add about 270 degrees. Let's assume the temp of a fired bullet is close to the melting point of lead, about 600 degrees K. A human body is at 310 degrees K and ballistic gel at 305 degrees K. That makes the heat transfer to a human body from a bullet about 0.4% less than to ballistic gel. It would take very sensitive, sophisticated instruments to even measure the difference in heat flow. And they claim to have made bullets that are that sensitive?

If you want to worry about bad guys shooting through body armor, keep long guns out of criminals and terrorists hands, as almost any centerfire rifle will penetrate all but the very heaviest body armor.

Better yet, kill the terrorists, and jail the criminals.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Kc

Please always feel free to use all the forum bandwidth that you feel you need to use in order to make your point.
We have almost unlimited bandwidth. Please do not ever let your concerns about our forum bandwidth allocation ever prevent you from attempting to make yourself clearly understood.
It is much more important that forum members have some idea of exactly what you're talking about.

I also do not understand what my "moderator status" has to do with anything that you have said or with my reply to your previous posts.
I don't think that I "pulled rank" on you anywhere...did I?
If I did...then point that out to me & I'll (for sure) apologize for that.

If you want to continue to make your argument with mildly childlike five word sentences like: "You underrate our LEOs." & "You overrate the bad guys."
Then you should probably sometimes expect to be misunderstood & misinterpreted.

You should know though that I try to post A LOT of various thread topics on this forum.
Usually, anything that I find interesting or newsworthy or different that is concealed carry or anything else that is firearm related.
I do that so that folks like you will always hopefully have a few new topics to read when you come here.
I sure don't expect everybody to agree with everything I post or to find every thread that I post of interest.
Sometimes I even blow it totally & put on a complete dud.
It's the Law Of Averages & it goes with the territory...I guess.
So you obviously disagree with this thread & my own personal opinion about it. That is fine. Let's leave it at that.

Unless you have anything more constructive to say concerning the thread topic or you wish to cite the specific sentences in my previous posts where you feel that I have shoved my moderator status in your face...then I am finished with this.

If you have any personal bone to pick with me or I have said anything in a previous or past post that you've taken some sort of offense to then shoot me a PM & we'll talk about it. I have no problem with that but, I don't want to inflict it on other members.
 

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Enter the FN 5.7 handgun. High velocity , small bullets. Will penetrate most body armor and heavy cover. Not sure about the blended metal technology, but it appears to work.
 

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The 5.7 has to use the right ammo to go through a vest. Lots more info at AmmoLab
 

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More info here and a FWIW a video from LaMas done in 2003: Armed Forces Journal

I have to wonder, if its that good, why haven't we heard more about it or see it at the local gun shop if it was available in '03?
 

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AutoFan, great post. RBCD has been discussed many times on many forums. As AutoFan stated, Stan Bulmer is a snake oil salesman. The ammo performs poorly in standard tests. Old Stan always claims that his ammo is so advanced that those tests just can't adequately test it. If you believe that, I've got some beach property in Kansas for sale.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
FLM & others

Mostly what I am interested in is what is being developed in the way of frangible bullets. I am continuing to search the web & research frangible bullets for myself & my own self education. I like to see what is being developed & how they are performing.
I am highly interested in absolutely non ricocheting bullet types.
I really don't much care for body armor penetration since I've developed & extensively practiced my own personal defensive shooting style that does not normally require two primary COM hits.
 

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While I would really hope that this ammunition is not used against our LEOs, it will be whether it is available or not. The bad guys will somehow get it. I find the argument that we should keep it from the public to protect officers to be the same one the gun grabbers make about guns being in our hands. Bad guys are using body armor these days and that should concern all of us. And all of us should have the means to defend ourselves against this.

I think the resolution to this lands in the lap of the courts and the way they handle cases of someone shooting (or shooting at) a police officer. In my opinion, this should be an automatic death penalty. Maybe they would get the idea that they should avoid killing our officers. And I our officers deserve that.

As for the the rest of the hooplah, "this forum" doesn't test ammunition. That doesn't mean that we can't talk about results of various tests or make our own assumptions and opinions known for people to comment on. If I had a dime for every comment someone had posted here that I didn't agree with I would be a rich man, indeed. That doesn't mean that person is wrong or that I am wrong. It just means we disagree. And, for the record, I don't believe that QK used his moderator rank in the situation. Moderators don't give up their right to opinions or being able to comment. We are all individuals, with individual ideas on different things. Just a simple "Sorry, I disagree" will usually do....
 
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