looks like I need to make another amazon.com order huh. Thanks for the review Bud.
~A
~A
Book Review: In The Gravest Extreme
5 :toilet: My Highest Rating.
In The Gravest Extreme
By Massad F. Ayoob
This is one everyone should have on there shelf.
Very enlighting in some spots. Good info on when to walk away vs fight it out and some myths on shootings.
The chapters
Covers when you can use lethal force,Disparity of force i.e a 60 year 130 pound old man against a 19 year old 200 pound man. Equal Force
And the Reasonableness of your response. bare fear vs reasonable Fear the im just plain scared of the stree punks vs the taunt of im going to kill you.
Escalation of force and what it means for you .
Goes into the Dangerous Myth of citizens arrest and what a bunch of trouble you can mange to get your self into.
Some good info on women and gus and when to use a gun in your store as a store owner.
The gun in your home and what kinds of steps and plans you should make up if you home is invaded..
Heres something that really surprised me "If you ascertained that the man you have the drop on is a deliberate intruder into your occupied home (and therefore by definition a deranged or vicious enemy) if you are certain that he has a weapon in or at hand; if you and he are in positions where he can shoot or stab you ----
Shoot him. In the back if you have to. And keep shooting him untill he is unable to shoot back"
Wow this one will get a whole other post to discuss that statment.
Also talks about buying off you assaliants in the street by tossing a match book with a 5 or 10in'er in it and tell um to buy a round on me hopeing that will be enough and if not and it turns into a gunfight .. It will look good for you becuse you tried to even buy your way out of the fight.
Theres a lot of good stuff in this book and more statments of the dont challenge just him him kind..
Also a section on gun choice its out of date since most the guns arent made anymore and alss this is a spot where the 45 meaning 1911 in this book is for a expert only i dont agree but each there own opinions.
Only cons some info outdate like gunselection the 45 must be a expert thing is off base i think.
All and all a must buy at only about 10 bucks ya cant lose.
In The Gravest Extreme
By Massad F. Ayoob
This is one everyone should have on there shelf.
Very enlighting in some spots. Good info on when to walk away vs fight it out and some myths on shootings.
The chapters
Covers when you can use lethal force,Disparity of force i.e a 60 year 130 pound old man against a 19 year old 200 pound man. Equal Force
And the Reasonableness of your response. bare fear vs reasonable Fear the im just plain scared of the stree punks vs the taunt of im going to kill you.
Escalation of force and what it means for you .
Goes into the Dangerous Myth of citizens arrest and what a bunch of trouble you can mange to get your self into.
Some good info on women and gus and when to use a gun in your store as a store owner.
The gun in your home and what kinds of steps and plans you should make up if you home is invaded..
Heres something that really surprised me "If you ascertained that the man you have the drop on is a deliberate intruder into your occupied home (and therefore by definition a deranged or vicious enemy) if you are certain that he has a weapon in or at hand; if you and he are in positions where he can shoot or stab you ----
Shoot him. In the back if you have to. And keep shooting him untill he is unable to shoot back"
Wow this one will get a whole other post to discuss that statment.
Also talks about buying off you assaliants in the street by tossing a match book with a 5 or 10in'er in it and tell um to buy a round on me hopeing that will be enough and if not and it turns into a gunfight .. It will look good for you becuse you tried to even buy your way out of the fight.
Theres a lot of good stuff in this book and more statments of the dont challenge just him him kind..
Also a section on gun choice its out of date since most the guns arent made anymore and alss this is a spot where the 45 meaning 1911 in this book is for a expert only i dont agree but each there own opinions.
Only cons some info outdate like gunselection the 45 must be a expert thing is off base i think.
All and all a must buy at only about 10 bucks ya cant lose.
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Gravest Extreme
The phrases "Must Have" and Must See" are so overused that they are almost meaningless. Having said that, this book really IS a "Must Have" for the responsible gun owner. I agree that some parts are a bit dated, but the overall information is essential for anyone who contemplates the unpleasant possibility that he may one day have to defend himself from a lethal threat.
If you don't have it, buy or borrow a copy and read it.
SSKC
The phrases "Must Have" and Must See" are so overused that they are almost meaningless. Having said that, this book really IS a "Must Have" for the responsible gun owner. I agree that some parts are a bit dated, but the overall information is essential for anyone who contemplates the unpleasant possibility that he may one day have to defend himself from a lethal threat.
If you don't have it, buy or borrow a copy and read it.
SSKC
First read IGE more than 20 years ago, try to read it once a year, as a refresher. Taught from IGE for more than 20 years.
Know him as a trainer for almost 20 years, as a friend for 16. There are several people in the training field that I would love to have on my 6 in a critical situation, Ayoob is one.
Know him as a trainer for almost 20 years, as a friend for 16. There are several people in the training field that I would love to have on my 6 in a critical situation, Ayoob is one.
I don't agree with everything Ayoob has written, but agree this book is well worth reading. Good insights and thoughts; just apply the "common sense" yardstick, as always!
Here in the state of Misery (Missouri) some of this advice will get you prison time, if you catch someone violently breaking into you r house you can shoot; once inside they can help themselves to a beer out of the frig, make a sandwich, sit down and watch TV etc. Unless they make an overtly hostile/threatening move you can not shoot, a shot to the back would be very hard to explain and would almost guarantee prison time here.
Many authors in this field don't pay any attention to the legal ramifications of use-of-force. Ayoob is one of the few that do. He generally seems to fall on one end of the spectrum of those who do. That is, he advises to use as little force as is minimally necessary to resolve the issue. Others teach to use as much force as is maximally allowable or justifiable. Most readers will eventually fall somewhere between the two camps.
In the Gravest Extreme is a good book and you should read it. Be aware that its legal advice is general and may not align detail-by-detail to your jurisdiction. Also be aware that while liability is a real concern, we must not allow liability to cloud our single-minded determination to survive the event.
Some of the book's critics say that the book doesn't distinguish between conceivable and potential legal pitfalls and probable or likely outcomes. That is, the book may warn that you might incur some liability if you do X, Y, or Z but never point out that there's no case history of anyone being held liable for doing those things. Or that the only person who ever was held liable for doing those things also may have been a person who associated with criminals, identified with a group of known or suspected criminals and who lead a high-risk lifestyle.
I've owned three or four copies of In the Gravest Extreme and need to replace it in my current library. I recommend it and will gladly share it with people who I care about but now, I wouldn't provide a copy of this book without also providing Gabe Suarez's The Combative Perspective and Jeff Cooper's Principles Of Personal Defense.
Chuck
In the Gravest Extreme is a good book and you should read it. Be aware that its legal advice is general and may not align detail-by-detail to your jurisdiction. Also be aware that while liability is a real concern, we must not allow liability to cloud our single-minded determination to survive the event.
Some of the book's critics say that the book doesn't distinguish between conceivable and potential legal pitfalls and probable or likely outcomes. That is, the book may warn that you might incur some liability if you do X, Y, or Z but never point out that there's no case history of anyone being held liable for doing those things. Or that the only person who ever was held liable for doing those things also may have been a person who associated with criminals, identified with a group of known or suspected criminals and who lead a high-risk lifestyle.
I've owned three or four copies of In the Gravest Extreme and need to replace it in my current library. I recommend it and will gladly share it with people who I care about but now, I wouldn't provide a copy of this book without also providing Gabe Suarez's The Combative Perspective and Jeff Cooper's Principles Of Personal Defense.
Chuck
Stupid Lawyer Tricks
I also enjoyed some of Ayoob's "Stupid Lawyer" tricks and the counter arguments that can effectivey neutralize them. My favorite: Somebody gets your deposition or you're on the stand and you get asked if you "regret your actions." Now, of course anybody is going to "regret" having killed somebody and even if you don't you're probably going to say that you do so as not to look bad in front of a bunch of jurors who lack your survival mindset! But in the context of a courtroom, "regret" seems to suggest GUILT.
The proper response would go something like this: "Regret? NO, I don't regret shooting the perpetrator. I GRIEVE for him and for his family. I GRIEVE for what HIS actions FORCED ME TO DO!" yada yada yada. Ayoob has several o9ther situations and advice. At least this gives you a heads up for what lines of questioning to be aware of that may pose a trap for the unsuspecting.
I did get some useful observations about the nature of legal proceedings and the mindset of antigun prosecutors and a gentle reminder that the cops aren't necessarily your friends in the aftermath of a civilian self defense shooting.Pyrolyzer said:Many authors in this field don't pay any attention to the legal ramifications of use-of-force. Ayoob is one of the few that do. He generally seems to fall on one end of the spectrum of those who do. That is, he advises to use as little force as is minimally necessary to resolve the issue. I wouldn't provide a copy of this book without also providing Gabe Suarez's The Combative Perspective and Jeff Cooper's Principles Of Personal Defense.
I also enjoyed some of Ayoob's "Stupid Lawyer" tricks and the counter arguments that can effectivey neutralize them. My favorite: Somebody gets your deposition or you're on the stand and you get asked if you "regret your actions." Now, of course anybody is going to "regret" having killed somebody and even if you don't you're probably going to say that you do so as not to look bad in front of a bunch of jurors who lack your survival mindset! But in the context of a courtroom, "regret" seems to suggest GUILT.
The proper response would go something like this: "Regret? NO, I don't regret shooting the perpetrator. I GRIEVE for him and for his family. I GRIEVE for what HIS actions FORCED ME TO DO!" yada yada yada. Ayoob has several o9ther situations and advice. At least this gives you a heads up for what lines of questioning to be aware of that may pose a trap for the unsuspecting.
I borrowed this years ago when I first started carrying. I believe when he wrote this book he was working as a LEO in New Hampshire. That may help explain some things that have been mentioned as bad in other states. NH was, at least before the MA invasion, a place where citizens rights were generally top. I checked a few years ago and the book was listed as out of print. LFI carried it, but their courses in NH were very limited it seemed.
Still a few out there: in the gravest extreme - Google Search
While forum software seems to think this 16 year old thread should be on my reading list this morning - I disagree.
That is the first book I ever read on the topic, decades ago. I may even still have my copy around somewhere. It is very good.
The book you mean? Yes, it's old. But he's not exactly a weekend warrior either. Ayoob's reputation in firearms and law is pretty high, from the last I heard.While forum software seems to think this 16 year old thread should be on my reading list this morning - I disagree.
The book was written a year after Ohio went from no issue to shall issue. The duty to retreat in Ohio would remain for many years after its publication. Laws throughout the country have also changed significantly since its publication. It may be now be of historical interest, but I want something a bit more up-to-date when considering legal advice and precedent.The book you mean? Yes, it's old. But he's not exactly a weekend warrior either. Ayoob's reputation in firearms and law is pretty high, from the last I heard.
I agree in that I woudn't use it as a law book, or co-council, but the general SD information is still relavent in many areas. I certainly wouldn't bother it if I lived in CA, but for the states I have lived (NH, NV, PA), much of the information is still valid and helpful.The book was written a year after Ohio went from no issue to shall issue. The duty to retreat in Ohio would remain for many years after its publication. Laws throughout the country have also changed significantly since its publication. It may be now be of historical interest, but I want something a bit more up-to-date when considering legal advice and precedent.
I’ve known Mas since the Summer of 1993, when he was out at my former home range in Bulverde, Tx. working with my Gunsmith Greg Ferris in the aftermath of his second shooting that occurred in his gunshop that used to be in San Antonio when gang members attempted to rob him. He gave me an autographed copy of that book that I still have to this day; much of what Mas teaches is IMHO still relevant, and while there may be some differences in lethal force laws that vary from state to state, the concept that “there is a District Attorney Attached to every bullet that exits your firearm” (his words) so you had best be sure your life is truly in danger when you squeeze that trigger is relevant everywhere, regardless of the laws In your jurisdiction.
Over the years I ran across him teaching a class out there over the years, and while some find him a bit abrasive, I’ve always gotten along with him quite well and exchanged emails from time to time regarding his articles. I think his book is a great place to start when one decides to start carrying a weapon for their defense of themselves or loved ones.………..
Over the years I ran across him teaching a class out there over the years, and while some find him a bit abrasive, I’ve always gotten along with him quite well and exchanged emails from time to time regarding his articles. I think his book is a great place to start when one decides to start carrying a weapon for their defense of themselves or loved ones.………..
This is a very old thread.
Bud White has not bee with us for ages but, if members still can find something useful here - Have At It.
Bud White has not bee with us for ages but, if members still can find something useful here - Have At It.
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
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