[P95Carry]

Ok - we all need to avoid trouble - that's a given.

But OTOH just how much do we put up with?

Reason I bring this up - this evening before dark, a punk, girl firiend and real junior were walkin along our road. Wife and I heard ''mail box sounds'' - and she went out front with me following - and ''reminded'' these folks that interfering with mail boxes was an offense. They were messing with some mail boxes.

I suggested my wife keep low key which she did but - made me wonder - first off these punks were well due a reminder of how to behave - or not to behave but - what if?

What if the young guy had wanted trouble and come over to start something? There I was on the porch - open carry but not obvious to them. Had he gotten serious - what were my options?

I was on my property of course but no ''castle doctrine'' here. Let's say he had no gun but got threatening? I guess one of us should have gone in to 911 - in fact they went on their way. If he had produced a gun then - well - had I started things or him?

I couldn't help wondering tho - just where we draw lines. Do we avoid ''situations'' because we carry - or do we still feel able to remonstrate with punks doing stupid stuff?

Fine dividing line I reckon - but sure as heck - it ain't easy to watch punks doing stupid things.

 

[Miggy]

In this specific case, I don't think the Castle Doctrine would have applied. Even though the punks were doing their stuff, your wife "confronted" the idiots. If things got out of hand, it would be both your fault for starting a situation that escalated into the display or use of a firearm when the punks' fault did not raise to the category of a felony in which deadly force may be used. At least that is the way I would see it.

 

[acparmed]

Miggy has a good point. If all they are doing is messing with the mailboxes, then they are doing nothing that rates more intervention from you than a phone call and an observant eye.
Only after they have torn down your mailbox and are advancing on the house do you have the option of escalating the situation by confronting them. I wouldn't allow them access to the house itself. I would step outside and stand my ground on the front porch.
The rest of the scenario is up to them and just how much they want to be Darwin Candidates.

 

[rocky]

I don't see why you can not chew em out. As long as you back off and retreat into your house and all other avenues to de escalate the situation if it increases.

 

[acparmed]

I don't see why you can not chew em out. As long as you back off and retreat into your house and all other avenues to de escalate the situation if it increases.

Because by chewing them out you are provoking and incident to occur.

IMO

 

[rocky]

I will have to disagee, if you ask em to leave your property alone and they threaten ya, you back off and they keep coming, I don't believe a jury would convict ya, at least in my area. Now if you are yelling and threatening them its a diffrent ball game.

 

[QKShooter]

Actually, there is no reason why you cannot go out and tell somebody to quit messing with your mailbox...or you're going to call the cops. That's fine. But, with a first obligation to retreat...if the perp starts getting $hitty then you really do need to go inside & call the police. You would have hard time explaining how you felt it was necessary to stay on the dangerous side of your front door in order to shoot somebody for acts of petty vandalism to your mailbox.

Now if:
Whoops! ~ You accidentally locked yourself out of your house & the perp then pulls your mailbox right up out of the ground...and charges at you with it over his head...then by all means...have a go at him to stop him from doing you bodily harm.

 

[Miggy]

I will have to disagee, if you ask em to leave your property alone and they threaten ya, you back off and they keep coming, I don't believe a jury would convict ya, at least in my area. Now if you are yelling and threatening them its a diffrent ball game.

It can be percieved by a jury as Ego getting the best part of you and escalating the situation. IMHO a better soultion would be to confront the punks, phone in hand while saying in a loud tone of voice: "The police has been notified of your activities." or "911? Yes there are 3 individuals damaging my property. The first one is a blonde white male, 5' 10", 140 Lbs, wearing a Gun 'n' Roses black T-shirt and jeans. The second one is a latino female........."

PS: Call your local PD Non-emergency number instead of 911. Mess with the Punk's heads by stating that you are calling 911. If the punks decide to escalate, the Non-emergency operator should be able to switch you inmediately to 911 or deal with the emergency him/herself.

 

[joe/OH]

I understand that when carrying, we have to be somewhat cautious on how we handle confrontations - but it seems like that is a little overboard. Maybe in some areas that would be the prudent choice - but not in mine.

 

[Rob72]

Tell them to leave. Call 911 if needed. Upgrade your mail box to a piece of 6', 4" steel pipe, with a 1/4" rectuangular plate welded to the top, with half of an 8" steel pipe welded on top of that. Sink your pipe 2' in the ground, and set with fiber re-enforced concrete. Paint a frilly white with little red flaggie. :tongue:

Plays hell with mailbox smashers- especially the car-and-ballbat crews. :biggrin: My dad was a welder...........

 

[P95Carry]

I'll reiterate my innate desire to avoid just about any confrontation - it is part of the responsibility of carry.

Mrs P95 did in fact only go check the mail box over other side which belongs to a very disabled old lady - and reminded the punks verbally from some distance that what they were doing was wrong. That was as far as it went and then we just stayed on the porch a while. Got me to thinking tho.

My reason for posting (and I may not have described enough to give a total mental picture) - was really just to highlight the dilemmas we can face. Many a time a ''reminder'' to some punk is well justified, and yet thru our carry obligations rarely very likely.

OTOH - with the attitudes of so many young these days - there is the thought that they should not continually get away with their crap.

Maybe a bit of ''damned if you do - damned if you don't'' :wink:

 

[tanksoldier]

Pointing out to someone that they are breaking the law isn't provocation. If P95Carry had to show or use his firearm it would be after the CRIMINAL escelated the situation to that level.

Had his wife wished to do so she could have placed the suspects under private person's arrest... she witnessed them commiting a crime. Would exercising her right to arrest have been "provocation" justifying an attack on her?

 

[P95Carry]

Thx tank - that is another way to look at it.

Tho I still reckon to pretty much avoid trouble always - at same time, seeing the law being flagrantly broken is hard to swallow!!

 

[ibex]

Pointing out to someone that they are breaking the law isn't provocation.

Funny, thought about exactly this topic this afternoon. I agree with P95 that CCW permit holders have a higher responsibility to avoid trouble and deescalate. But I also came to tanksoldiers conclusion. Telling someone off is not picking a fight, no matter how the offender feels about that.

 

[rocky]

I think as long as you are calm and polite you should be o.k. providing you have witnesses or the troublemaker has a record.

 

[Tactician]

We hashed this issue out pretty thoroughly in this thread:
Lessons Learned

The discussion was a little bit tedious at times--as we were discussing an article that few of us had read! :silly: Still, the comments were good ones on both sides.

The bottom line: there is no great answer. If you exercise your Constitutional rights of freedom of speach, etc., you could wind up spending a LOT of money in attorney's fees. If you give up all your rights, then carrying a gun has made you a prisoner.

I guess my own take is some middle ground. I pick my battles, and try to sound reasonable when I do speak up. But sometimes I do speak up.

Most recently, I was at a theater with a noisy group interupting the movie. I looked at them. No effect. I went over and talked to them politely but firmly. No effect. I went and complained to the staff. Nothing happened. Then a woman in our group (a very motherly type) tried. No effect. I went back outside and got a staff member and told her that something simply had to be done, and it had to be done immediately. A police officer came in, and made his presence known. He did it again. No more problem.

 

[Wyoming]

My mailbox is 1/4 inch welded steel plate on a chunk of 4 inch drill stem that is set in the ground about 4 feet with almost 24 inches of concrete around it. Yep, it took a little time and effort, but no more ball bat problems. I think it has been hit once or twice, would like to know how much their hands stung after that run-in.

 

[FortyFive]

When the neighborhood thugs get tired of listening they may return under cover of dark at their choosing and simply tear up the property or mailbox.
The home owner is up against a wall, he/she cannot let loose with a 12 guage and salt nor throw a 2x4 at them as they will get the law! You read all the time how some poor women has used video over a period of time to capture the acts of these thugs in order to get the police to act.
To some extent its very dangerious today for a homeowner to challange such actions by the thugs. The homeowner cannot simply let loose with a volley from the shotgun because we for the most part are law abiding and try not to step over the line. We are aware of our actions and try to be careful.
The thug on the other hand gets a good feeling out of your inability to shut him down.
It was so much simpler when I was younger, your relatives found out who was screwing with the family and the matter was taken care of.
I hope you have peace and quiet in the neighborhood.

 

[P95Carry]

Wyoming - I think the only thing that might defeat your mailbox would be a snowplow!!

Richard - sadly you are right - and that is one of the very aggravating aspects of the modern punk - knowing as they seem too that they can basically flip you the bird with impunity.

Those kids we saw were I suspect not locally resident as I know most faces - so perhaps they were just outa county or outa state punks! Not been seen since that I have been aware of.

 

[XD40]

I am with TankSoldier on this. Just because we carry does not mean we give up our rights to confront immoral or illeagal activities, especially if that activity involves our property. Asking/telling someone to leave your property alone or that you do not appreciate their foul mouths in the presence of your family is not a provocation in my mind. Your actions after this point could be construed as provocation if YOU escalate the situation. Say the juveniles walked away cursing you under their breath, you ran after them shouting threats, that could be interrpretted as escalation. We talk all the time about meeting force with force and protecting our families. And yet many of you are advising to simply turn the other cheek and let them get away with their actions. Isn't that how we got to this point? The constitution also gives us the right to protect our property. I don't see anything in the description from P95 that would have prevented him from drawing a weapon if the group became seriously threatening after being informed that what they were doing was wrong/illegal and to stay off your property. To say that we cannot confront wrongdoers UNLESS they are a threat to us just gives them more of an envelope within which they can practice their 'trade'. And to do that is to give-in. Let them flip you the bird for telling them to stay away or stop what they're re doing, if they escalate it further than that, respond accordingly. Remember, they started it with their actions. IMO