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One typo???
 
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Discussion Starter #5
I'm not one to trust the cdc much, they've been directed by others agenda's far too long.
Don't love the CDC either, but since they're usually anti-gun, and their suicide numbers seem about right, and their other numbers look reasonable, I'm good with this. Obviously, none of the groups, governmental or non-governmental, seem to be able to agree on firearms usage statistics, so I guess it all comes down to whose numbers we want to believe. If I am ever really bored, I think it would be interesting to sit down and try to do a spreadsheet with the numbers side by side from FBI, VPC, NRA, CDC, etc. But I'm not usually bored enough to want to spend the hours to do do this....
 

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But that means that if you're not in a gang, and don't off yourself, that you have about a 2X higher chance of justifiably killing someone than being a victim. How's that for use of statistics to show guns are inherently bad...
 

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You have to understand the mindset of the alter position in order to offer a counter position that might be considered. The gun violence argument does not divide up the buckets of gun deaths the way this is presented. Many anti gun violence folks believe that if there were fewer guns, there would be fewer suicides. Likewise, if there were fewer guns, there may be fewer accidental deaths. This division of gun deaths only works for those on the pro gun side. Getting the gun violence folks on board requires some deeper argument on why the division of deaths is rational.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Getting the gun violence folks on board requires some deeper argument on why the division of deaths is rational.
So, what do you suggest? Having a discussion with anti-gun people seems pretty futile most of the time. Wish that was different, but that seems to be the case to me.
 
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So, what do you suggest? Having a discussion with anti-gun people seems pretty futile most of the time. Wish that was different, but that seems to be the case to me.
I'm not sure. I know that the pro gun folks don't need any more convincing 'cause they are already on board. I suppose there are some in the middle that can be swayed and I guess for those, rational arguments for why the division of deaths by gun might be valuable. The devils advocate might ask why countries with less gun rights have fewer overall homicides - regardless of method. I'm not making that argument, but it is not an irrational question for the middle of the road folks to ask. As you noted, the rabid anti-gun folks aren't any more interested in serious inquiry and dialog than the rabid folks on any side of the debate.
 

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FBI stats say 40% of murders in the U.S. go unsolved. So how can the CDC determine that 80% of the homicides are...Gang-related? Are they only counting the ones that result in a conviction? :blink:

My head hurts. :hmmmm2:
 
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but if we can save just one life...for the chillun! :rolleyes:

The CDCs gun studies have worked in our favor, which is why they have been silenced, and the liberal sheep have been told by their leaders that republicans are blocking funding for it. By blocking funding for it, they mean they are not being given additional money to tweak the study to be in their favor.
 
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My question is this: How many people avoided being victims because they had a gun but didn't need to shoot the perp> I know I'm one. And it doesn't show up on any statistical data base.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
My question is this: How many people avoided being victims because they had a gun but didn't need to shoot the perp> I know I'm one. And it doesn't show up on any statistical data base.
I am sure there are many. But, of course, that's what they would call "anecdotal evidence" and "scientists" don't count that.
 

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FBI stats say 40% of murders in the U.S. go unsolved. So how can the CDC determine that 80% of the homicides are...Gang-related? Are they only counting the ones that result in a conviction? :blink:

My head hurts. :hmmmm2:
Yeah, I've never seen the homicides broken down into gang-related stats (and I've wanted to). I'd like to see a link so I know that was actually a CDC stat and not just something posted on Facebook before I go quoting it.
 

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DOJ 2013 Gun Violence report

You might want to check out the DOJ 2013 Gun Violence report from 1993-2011. It is a DOJ report Obama, AG and their progressive Bloomberg-MDA pro-gun law groups never speak about.

Pg. 12, In 2007-11, there were 235,700 victimizations where the victim used a firearm to threaten or attack an offender (table
11).
* This doesn't support the Pro-gun law agenda that there are not many non-LEO gun owners using their firearms in self-defense. At least not on national news media coverage.

Pg. 13, Source of firearms possessed by state prison inmates at time of offense:
Source
Flea market 1997: 1.0% 2014: 0.6%
Gun show 1997: 0.8% 2014: 0.8%

* This doesn't support the Pro-gun law agenda to close the evil gun show loopholes, less then 1%

Pg. 13, Possession of firearms by state and federal prison inmates at time of offense, by specific type of firearm, 1997 and
2004.

Specific type of firearm
Single shot 1997 State: 9.9% Federal: 7.6% 2004 State: 7.5% Federal: 8.2%

Conventional
semiautomatic 1997 State: 7.8% Federal:8.3% 2004 State:6.6% Federal:7.9%

Military-style
semiautomatic or
fully automatic 1997 State:1.5% Federal:1.7% 2004 State: 2.0% Federal:3.2%

Other 1997 State: 0.1% Federal:0.2% 2004 State:0.1% Federal:0.1%

* This doesn't support the Pro-gun law agenda on the either 10-rd magazine limit or evil semi-auto firearm, when revolvers are actually used more often, not by much, but still it is higher.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf
 

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Discussion Starter #18
You might want to check out the DOJ 2013 Gun Violence report from 1993-2011. It is a DOJ report Obama, AG and their progressive Bloomberg-MDA pro-gun law groups never speak about.
I've seen that report before. Also very interesting!
 
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It does fry the grey matter. So, 80% of the 60% of the solved murders are gang-related, correct?
I think you probably have to take these numbers as they are presented; i.e., 80% of the 10560 homicides are gang related. But don't take my word for it, I have always been math challenged. :gah:
 
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I am sure there are many. But, of course, that's what they would call "anecdotal evidence" and "scientists" don't count that.
True, yet that is a huge part of the equation! I don't carry a gun to be cool or as a decoration. I carry it because perceived benefits outweigh perceived costs.

If one only looks at costs, none of us should own cars. Unlike guns, I actually have known people killed driving cars, and innocent people killed by "cars" running red lights. Don't know anyone killed by a gun. With all the car-related and car-caused deaths, how can any moral person drive a car? But of course, driving cars has a benefit associated with it, and the "costs" can largely be managed by taking reasonable precautions.

Hard to do a cost/benefit analysis if the so-called scientist only looks at the costs.
 
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