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Discussion Starter #1
Though I fully intend to pick up SW642 in a couple of weeks regardless of whether I carry it or not, after spending some time on this forum and browsing other sites I have noticed that a lot of people dont like to carry a BUG. Would it make more sense to reach for another mag rather than a different gun if you were in the unlikely event of a fire fight? If you are already carry extra mags, why not a couple more instead of a BUG, what is the difference? Two mags and a BUG vs. four mags? And then if you are going to go with the BUG shouldn't you have extra ammo for that or not? It seems to me that you could get more ammo for the same weight of a BUG.

Not opposed to a BUG, just some fun dialogue.

Just a thought, anyone care to comment? :smile:
 

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Shotgun Willie, I actually do both: pack a BUG and extra ammo. Here's the kicker, my agency does not authorize BUGs...as such, I can only carry a BUG during my off-duty time. No problem there...that's what my Kahr PM9 is for. What I do now is I carry a Kahr P9 Covert in an IWB holster and the PM9 in a pocket holster off-duty.

The great thing is that both guns have the same manual-of-arms (slide releases and trigger pulls) and utilize the same six round 9mm magazine. As such, I am able to carry one or two seven round magazines (I try to carry two most of the times) in a double pouch which works in both my primary firearm and BUG.

During the days of the old NYPD Stakeout Squad it was SOP to carry BUGs....I think the term "NY reload" started around that time since it was viewed that the quickest reload was the BUG.

I'm a proponent that if you carry a gun (regardless of the number of guns), you should carry at least one reload....that includes a reload for the BUG.
 

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I do both most of the time.

The"New York reload" is far faster than any option when you need shells on tap right now.
 

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I think mag's come first - feed the lion before worrying about the kitten!

That said, the option for a New York reload does make a BUG an attractive proposition. No way of knowing what may make primary go south!

In normal course of events - meaning home - office - just SIG and its mag. Go out to town then extra mag. If trip out much more involved then extra mag and R9 gets slipped into pocket too.

A BUG is I confess another piece of baggage - that has to be accomodated but - if I am not sure, it'll be there - in fact thinkin' on it - NAA Mini is almost always there as BUG but hey - that is below mouse category!
 

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Time Difference

Some pistols like the Colt 1911 are so quick to reload & put back into instant service that I don't really see any time difference or savings in accomplishing a quick reload or grabbing out a BUG.
Naturally, for a catastrophic weapon failure I would much rather have a BUG than hafta throw "now useless" extra magazines at the Bad Guy. :biggrin:
 

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I carry both. I carry 3 spare mags for my primary, and 2 spare reloads for the BUG.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Great thoughts guys. I found it interesting while visiting other forums today that so many were against the BUG but not much in the way of reasoning was given. That got me thinking why and thought I would see what you all had to say. Though the other forums I visited weren't bad, this forum seems to have a higher intelligence level throughout. That's why I joined here. :biggrin:

So, back on subject. If a BUG is a good idea in general, should your BUG be a an everyday piece? What I mean by this is not whether or not this is your first defense but rather no matter what the task or errand you have to run, you have this gun on body. Realizing that that is a question somewhat left to personal preference, the thought behind the question is this. As a general rule, most of the BUG's talked about are smaller caliber, less capacity or both. So when the wife tells me to run to the post office or the store and I am wearing basketball pants and a t-shirt is it ok to throw the 642 in pocket and go or should I stop being so lazy and take the two minutes to change clothes so I can take my main carry. It is not unconceivable that an encounter could happen on a 'quick' errand.

Like I said, I know the answer is ultimately a personal one, but the motivation behind the question is one of tactics. Big stick all the time or is comfort and convenience ok sometimes?
 

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IMHO which isn't much, I used to carry a Walther PPK/S as a back-up to my 4" Python. Now days I just carry one of my 1911's, one spare mag and my SureFire 6P. I have found that I can reload the 1911 with about the same speed it would take me to drop it and dig for my BUG.
I also don't like the idea that if it is down to where I need to reload, do I REALLY want to drop to a smaller caliber at that moment?

My 2 cents worth.
 

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Shotgun Willie said:
Like I said, I know the answer is ultimately a personal one, but the motivation behind the question is one of tactics. Big stick all the time or is comfort and convenience ok sometimes?
Most people who are 100% against the BUG are either just dyed in the wool types who are devoted to one particular caliber or platform, or they're lying. I don't know a CCW licensee that doesn't have a BUG. For some people the BUG just doesn't work though. It's just like anything else. Some people aren't happy with certain calibers either.

Figure out where you are comfortable at bare minimum, and then dip slightly below it, and there's your BUG. I for instance realize I don't live in a movie and I'm not a Delta commando. A 5 shot capacity .38 with a 1" barrel will realistically handle anything I'd ever need a handgun to do in all probability even though it's not my idea tool.

But then again my primary carry is overkill by my standards, and that just makes me feel a little bit better. Even though I think my 642 is up to the task, I just feel better with a full size revolver or pistol. I'm finding more and more ways to carry my primary all the time. Getting the second XD40 has really made a huge difference already. I can't believe how easy it is to carry it all the time when I have one that lives in my vehicle full time.

To me the BUG represents a way to carry a redundant gun so that you can draw from more than one position, and it represents a way to carry a gun for times you wouldn't be able to carry a gun. For instance I find it awkward to carry my full size guns to church. The little .38 in the pocket works very well however.

It's also a great way just to get used to carrying a gun period because it's so easy. That's what I did. I carried just a BUG for about a month and got used to having a gun on me all the time that way. Now I feel weird all day because I don't have a gun handy.
 

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Bug Out

Euclidean said:
Most people who are 100% against the BUG are either just dyed in the wool types who are devoted to one particular caliber or platform, or they're lying. I don't know a CCW licensee that doesn't have a BUG. For some people the BUG just doesn't work though. It's just like anything else. Some people aren't happy with certain calibers either.

Figure out where you are comfortable at bare minimum, and then dip slightly below it, and there's your BUG. I for instance realize I don't live in a movie and I'm not a Delta commando. A 5 shot capacity .38 with a 1" barrel will realistically handle anything I'd ever need a handgun to do in all probability even though it's not my idea tool.

But then again my primary carry is overkill by my standards, and that just makes me feel a little bit better. Even though I think my 642 is up to the task, I just feel better with a full size revolver or pistol. I'm finding more and more ways to carry my primary all the time. Getting the second XD40 has really made a huge difference already. I can't believe how easy it is to carry it all the time when I have one that lives in my vehicle full time.

To me the BUG represents a way to carry a redundant gun so that you can draw from more than one position, and it represents a way to carry a gun for times you wouldn't be able to carry a gun. For instance I find it awkward to carry my full size guns to church. The little .38 in the pocket works very well however.

It's also a great way just to get used to carrying a gun period because it's so easy. That's what I did. I carried just a BUG for about a month and got used to having a gun on me all the time that way. Now I feel weird all day because I don't have a gun handy.
I'm the CCW permit holder AND certified instructor who does NOT have a BUG. For me, that concept would apply thusly: I'm carrying an M1A rifle or an M4 and I have a 45 on my hip. Spare mags for both. I think I have just described a soldier.....

My Glock M27 is a primary carry weapon. I have hi-cap M22 mags to wear as spares as well as the standard 9 or 10 rd mags designed to go with the M27. If I need to carry into church, that's what I carry. In fact that's what I usually carry anyway. Now, if I'm on a trip or deep into "Indian Country" I carry a 45, which is one reason I'm getting the H&K USP. Because otherwise, it's lots of sp mags.
 

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(I'm gonna get buried for this)---BUT---I completely trust my Kimber (so)and I don't carry a extra weapon and ammo so I can hand it to someone else in case they're too stooopid to carry one their self,so no BUG for me.Can think of situations that I would grab up a couple extra mags for the Kimber though. As I have said in the past,carry as many weapons,ammo,flashlights,knives,and etc. as you think that you will need. P.S Don't forget the suspenders.----------
 

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P95Carry said:
I think mag's come first - feed the lion before worrying about the kitten!
Me too, but I do see the advantage of a BUG. But carrying another gun is a "where and how?" problem, plus I do have to leave it/them in the car on a regular basis. "Installing" and "uninstalling" two guns seems more than twice the trouble of one.
P95Carry said:
In normal course of events - meaning home - office - just SIG and its mag. Go out to town then extra mag. If trip out much more involved then extra mag and R9 gets slipped into pocket too.
I find myself, "...in the normal course of events..." which includes out and about around "town", relying on a Sig 226/229 or H&K USP and the rounds in the gun alone. I do often have another mag(s) in the car.

And for the out of town trips, I don't carry a BUG, but I do take a BUG with full compliment of mags, holster, etc. with me. I figure if I have to use my primary gun in self-defense, the police will take it pending the outcome of their investigation. I can revert to the not carried, but available BUG.

QKShooter said:
Some pistols like the Colt 1911 are so quick to reload & put back into instant service that I don't really see any time difference or savings in accomplishing a quick reload or grabbing out a BUG.
Well, again, me too. I don't see the BUG as necessarily a good way to reload. I know that goes against the grain, but like you say, "...I don't really see any time difference or savings in accomplishing a quick reload or grabbing out a BUG."

One of my concerns is what do you do with the primary gun to facilitate a fast presentation of the BUG? Dropping my primary gun on the ground just because it's empty is not very appealing. Plus that means I will be fighting with my second choice in a weapon instead of my first choice. That's not very appealing either.

I may have to move and leave the primary gun, or it may fall out of reach or into the mud, sand, etc. Then what if I draw my BUG and it goes click instead of bang? It probably won't click, but what do I do when if it runs out of ammo? Throw it down too?

The redeeming thing is that it is highly unlikely that we would need to reload in a gunfight. There likely won't be time or opportunity.

QKShooter said:
Naturally, for a catastrophic weapon failure I would much rather have a BUG than hafta throw "now useless" extra magazines at the Bad Guy.
That's what I consider the primary reason for the BUG; primary weapon failure that can't be fixed with and immediate action drill.

But even then, the chances seem really, really slim that if our main gun fails, that we will have enough time to realize our gun has failed, draw a BUG and continue fighting. But anything can happen. Being more prepared can't hurt, but about the only place I can/want to carry a BUG is in an ankle holster. That makes for a very slow presentation, but it's a great location if you're sitting in a car or at a table - it's very, "not obvious" to retreive it.
 

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I work with technology every day (communications) and often joke about having something like a Catholic saints medal made, it will be for the patron saint of all technology; Saint Murphy :chairshot

That hunk of iron on your belt is a piece of technology, no matter how reliable it has been, it is likely to fail at some point, and Saint Murphy says it will fail when you really need it. That said, I don't always carry a BUG, and when I do it is not in place of a reload (every main piece I carry is "high capacity" G19, G20, Para-Ord P-14) and I always carry 2 spare mags; it is for that catastrophic failure of the main gun or other loss of the main gun.
 

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I'm playing with the idea of packing my S&W442 apendix offside, but if I got that route I want to have a setup I train with and will want the BUG with me at all times. I would still have my G19L strong side and a G17 mag offside, but with the BUG I would practice switching to it after teh first RTB and not do Class2 clearance until behind cover. Having the BUG in ankle or any place that is not fast to get to defeats the purpose really.

The flip side is more crap on the belt. I've been packing the 442 Bramma grip style, but it's not very comfy and if I do go this route I will be getting a cross draw setup.
 

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I rely on the Concealed Combat Commander IWB or OWB at 4:00 and 2 8's at 8:00. 25 rds of 45 acp in two quick mag changes works for me. The Cell Phone is at 9:00, and I have always practiced reloads with the cell phone on board to make sure I don't accidentally try stuffing it up the mag well. Re-loads are very fast. It is terrifying to imagine a situation requiring more than 3 shots or 3 seconds before or after movement or heading to cover. Unless the weak hand is controlling the shurefire flashlight, it should soon be holding a spare mag.

The role of the BUG seems to be defined rather individually, and most are trying to give it a great deal of importance. Absolutely nothing can replace the access, capacity with re-loads, speed, control, or power of the primary. The primary should be THE one with which to practice, to carry always, and to count on absolutely. Keep it simple, fast, and effective.

IMO the BUG ought to be as small, smooth, light, and thin as possible for deep concealment and stealth. It should be carried strong side when by itself, and weak side when complimentary to the primary. The NAA 380 Guardian and the Kel-Tec P3-AT come to mind. Revolvers are bulkier, snaggier, and more difficult to conceal, but some work well as BUGs. By its nature, deep concealment precludes the NY re-load due to the more difficult access, unless the primary ammo has been used. If the BUG's role is expanded, it must become larger, more powerful, and carried more accessibly, possibly interfering to some degree with the primary's fast presentation, and certainly very bulky and heavy for something so seldom needed.

IMO the possible needs for BUG are: strong side shot, damaged, or blocked; primary ammo exhausted; primary malfunction; or loss of retention of primary, in that order of probability. I carry one extra mag for the BUG in a custom sleeve on the pocket holster, but I doubt I could re-load it if the strong side is shot up or blocked, anyway.
 

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If I had to choose between a BUG and a primary reload, I'd carry the reload... but I'd rather have both.
 
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