[P95Carry]

Guys - someone else had found this and used it in a post - struck me as being of some interest to all perhaps.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From - Firing Line forum (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-47579.htm):


"Dr45ACP

"Sanow doesn't understand why people die after being shot.

"I am a surgeon, have operated on many GSW victims.

"No handgun, including 357, 9mm, etc, is a 'high energy' or 'high velocity' round. Energy and velocity are more important when we are talking about rifle calibers. With respect to high powered rifles, a shock wave of energy does spread out at impact and devitalizes a large area of tissue by disrupting small blood vessels, etc. The effects of this, however, may not be immediately obvious to the eye, though it will help to incapacitate the victim.

"Handguns are low energy, low velocity weapons. They do not have this effect. The primary determinants of their lethality is shot placement and the size of the defect they create.

"The cross sectional area of a 45 cal bullet is about 50% larger than for a 38 cal bullet, and therefore 50% more blood will be lost over a certain time. Or a 50% larger hole will be made in a criminals brain, heart, lung, etc.

"My experience has been that people with large holes shot through them are more likely to die than those who have small holes. Big holes are harder to fix. More tissue is destroyed.

"I have never seen anyone with an injury that I would attribute to 'energy' from a certain handgun round. All I see are holes that have to be repaired.

"Velocity and energy for a handgun round is important because it increases the chances a hollowpoint will expand on impact.

"Finally, as far a 9mm bullets tumbling: they certainly do. But so do 22, 25, 38, 40, and 45!"

 

[Bud White]

Thats a intersting Read... That proves the 45 and bigger holes is still better :chairshot

 

[KC135]

Believe me, Sanow knows. Anyone who has ever listened to Sanow lecture knows.

This is just more of the Marshall/Sanow haters baloney.

Jealousy.

 

[Waldo0506]

Velocity and energy are important for other reasons too. Like penetration.

 

[MattXYZ]

Sanow and Marshall are biased chumps. Check out firearmstactical.com-wound ballistics for the discrepancies in their data.

 

[ELCruisr]

Here we go again
:krach:

 

[QKShooter]

I'm staying with my .45 so I'll not worry about it and just concentrate on putting any possible future life-defensive shots in hopefully effective locations.

 

[rstickle]

Bottom line has always been that someone killed with a .22 is just as dead as one killed with a .45. The most important thing is to be able to hit your target (in a lethal place)!

 

[afeazell21]

That is interesting.

 

[paramedic70002]

Bottom line has always been that someone killed with a .22 is just as dead as one killed with a .45. The most important thing is to be able to hit your target (in a lethal place)!

Yep here we go again.

22s do kill, but it takes a lot longer. I prefer an immediate stop, or at least as is convenient. :image035:

 

[ElMonoDelMar]

"The cross sectional area of a 45 cal bullet is about 50% larger than for a 38 cal bullet, and therefore 50% more blood will be lost over a certain time. Or a 50% larger hole will be made in a criminals brain, heart, lung, etc."

This stat is a little misleading.

Assuming all things equal, a .45 caliber hole is only 1.40 times the size of a .38 caliber hole. So in actuallity a 1.40 times larger hole will be made in a criminals brain, heart or lung with a .45 than will be made with a .38. Seems pretty insignificant to me.

 

[RSSZ]

I say, almost any caliber,with almost any bullet,several times,in COM.

I got better things to worry about.

Things like training. Things like preparidness. Things like mindset. ---------

 

[.45acp]

I'm staying with my .45 so I'll not worry about it and just concentrate on putting any possible future life-defensive shots in hopefully effective locations.

Me too :smile:

 

[ron8903]

IMHO shot placement #1, #2 Size of projectile.
Remember a .22 in the hart kills just like a .45 in the hart will.

 

[Rob72]

Big holes, more holes, holes where they need to be. Modern HPs generally all equalize with around .55-.60 optimal expansion. "Optimal" is the operative word. Energy optimizes expansion, with proper design, but has little to do with "shock" in the 100-240 grain, 1400fps and lower envelope. The surgeon is correct, in that aspect. A gut-shot with a .30-06/7mm/.308 spitzer will definitely take the wind out of a homosapien's sails, via neurogenic shock.:blink:

 

[Redneck Repairs]

to heck with popcorn ... i orderd pizza and a 12 pack for this one lol

 

[Vulthoom]

This stat is a little misleading.

Assuming all things equal, a .45 caliber hole is only 1.40 times the size of a .38 caliber hole. So in actuallity a 1.40 times larger hole will be made in a criminals brain, heart or lung with a .45 than will be made with a .38. Seems pretty insignificant to me.

You have to take the difference in the "hole" size, and factor in penetration depth. A hole 1.40 times the size of a .38, over the same penetration distance, will actually disrupt far more tissue, and cause a lot more overall damage.

 

[Tangle]

You're assuming that a larger caliber will penetrate to an equal depth as the smaller caliber. What if the smaller caliber penetrates deeper? If the smaller caliber penetrates more deeply, the volumetric damage could be the same or more than the larger caliber.

 

[ElMonoDelMar]

You're assuming that a larger caliber will penetrate to an equal depth as the smaller caliber. What if the smaller caliber penetrates deeper? If the smaller caliber penetrates more deeply, the volumetric damage could be the same or more than the larger caliber.

Bingo.

 

[Lew]

So engery and velocity are now irrelivant? Cool, I can trade in the expensive gun and sharpen the end of a 2x4 for a nice big hole. Hey, it's bigger than a .45, right? See, size matters.... :rofl:

While I have not read the previous posts on this subject, I can totally see why it is a "here we go again...". I thnk this post needs some levity.

I read the published work of another doctor 10 or 12 years ago, who said that for GSW victims that did not die right away, from the wound itself, the leading cause of death was infection from the victims clothing. He seemed to think the bullet was "sterilized" in the barrel, ( I doubt this but for the sake of discussion will let it go...) and the infection was caused by the bullet carrying small amounts of clothing into the wound with it. These containing germs and other bad stuff leading to infections and then death....

I don't know if it is true or not. The argument seemed to be logical the way it was written and the way I read it. So if it is true, if you plan on getting shot, stay naked? I think not, I want my carharts, in layers, with a vest, or two....