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Silly question. Stealing an unoccupied car (or anything else, for that matter) is not self defense. Defense of others is not what I was talking about, and was not what the guy in Kenosha was doing either.

Again, theft is not a crime where the perp forfeits his life.
Never said it was. In fact, I elaborated somewhat on that exact point. When attempted theft turns into robbery, then the use of deadly force can become justified. Perp jumps into car at gas station while the owner is coming out of the building and sees it. Owner runs up to the car as the perp is getting out with a few of his perp friends and yells at the owner to give him his keys and wallet. Now it is robbery and one may use deadly force to repel the threat.
 

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It seems like many of us here agree the issue started with leaving the vehicle running unlocked. That made the use of lethal force wrong. There are definitely times and reasons where theft can allow for the use of lethal force, but not in this case.

Seriously, who leaves their vehicle running, unlocked, and unattended in a public place? You're asking to have your vehicle stolen.
 

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That's a bit over the top, IMHO. We are talking about wasting some of your time versus possibly killing someone. That is two radically different definitions of "life."
"Some" of my time?

How about a truck that costs $48,000 which represents over half of what you make in a year?

In other words, you will have to give up over half of your salary for a year in order to purchase a replacement. That is more than a mere "some" of my time.

And, as someone mentioned, we used to hang horse and cattle thieves. We should not have stopped.

The only thing that stops criminals is knowing the risk of punishment. If that risk is getting shot, they may just think twice before deciding to steal.
 

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Seriously, who leaves their vehicle running, unlocked, and unattended in a public place? You're asking to have your vehicle stolen.
I’m not arguing the merits of the shoot but your quote seems to align with the similar idea that a girl is asking to be sexually assaulted because of her outfit.


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Here you go, countries with the death penalty for theft: Afghanistan, Algeria, Cameroon, China, Iran, Saudi Arab, Iraq, and North Korea.
What's your point?

I never mentioned the death penalty as that is punishment meted out by the state.

What I am referring to is catching a person on or in your property, attempting or succeeding in stealing it, and you taking defensive measures to defend that property up to and including the use of a firearm.

That is NOT the death penalty.

You are shooting to stop the crime in progress, not to kill the criminal.

Of course if it does kill them, that is the price of doing the crime.
 

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Then lobby to have the law changed.
Changed back, fixed it for you.

When this country was not the weak country it has become, criminals feared being shot by their intended victims.

As it is now, they have become brazen because of the laws being changed that do not allow the defense of property in some states.

Criminals should not have more rights than victims.
 

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Changed back, fixed it for you.

When this country was not the weak country it has become, criminals feared being shot by their intended victims.

As it is now, they have become brazen because of the laws being changed that do not allow the defense of property in some states.

Criminals should not have more rights than victims.
I am not arguing with you, just stating the facts.
 

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What's your point?

I never mentioned the death penalty as that is punishment meted out by the state.

What I am referring to is catching a person on or in your property, attempting or succeeding in stealing it, and you taking defensive measures to defend that property up to and including the use of a firearm.

That is NOT the death penalty.

You are shooting to stop the crime in progress, not to kill the criminal.

Of course if it does kill them, that is the price of doing the crime.
Of course it's the death penalty. You have simply eliminated all the middlemen who current law has set up to act as police, judge, prosecutor, and executioner. Frankly, those aren't responsibilities I'm willing to defer to people who feel as you do.
 
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Of course it's the death penalty. You have simply eliminated all the middlemen who current law has set up to act as police, judge, prosecutor, and executioner. Frankly, those aren't responsibilities I'm willing to defer to people who feel as you do.
There does not need to be "middlemen" in the case where you, the victim, catches the criminal in the act on your property as the people you mention are there to determine if the criminal actually committed the crime in question. When you catch them in the act, there is no doubt to you that they are indeed the criminal and they are committing a criminal act.

"Feel as you (I) do"?

What do you mean by that? Someone that is fed up with criminals being let go time and time again with huge rap sheets and victims all over the place?

I am simply a person that believes in right and wrong.

I am a person that does not attack others, does not rob or steal from others, and expect the same courtesies from others. Those that choose to abuse others, which is what criminals do, do not deserve any sympathy or regards when it comes to stopping them from doing what they do.

It almost seems as though you think I am some sort of monster because I may shoot someone to protect my property.

Of course I would not merely shoot someone caught stealing my property but I would also not hesitate to shoot them if they chose to fight back, resist, or, in some circumstances, flee.

It is very difficult on sites like this to cover all bases and situations and clarity gets lost in translation, but to me, the rights of the victim far outweigh any protection the criminal should get from the law.
 

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"Feel as you (I) do"?

What do you mean by that? Someone that is fed up with criminals being let go time and time again with huge rap sheets and victims all over the place?
No, I mean someone who believes that the penalty for theft should be immediate execution by the would-be victim.
 

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I’m not arguing the merits of the shoot but your quote seems to align with the similar idea that a girl is asking to be sexually assaulted because of her outfit.
Your example is terrible. It's not a counter argument. There is a major difference between knowingly letting possessions be easy to steal. and dealing with a deranged lunatic who desires to harm another. Vastly different scenarios that have nothing to do with one another.
 

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Your example is terrible. It's not a counter argument. There is a major difference between knowingly letting possessions be easy to steal. and dealing with a deranged lunatic who desires to harm another. Vastly different scenarios that have nothing to do with one another.
What’s the difference? You are blaming the victim for the crime.

Is it a smart or wise decision to leave your car unattended with the keys in the ignition? No. Is it wise to dress provocatively in an environment where predators may be lurking? No.

Do both individuals deserve to be victimized? Are they asking to be victimized? Absolutely not.

Put the blame on the criminal. I mean would you steal a car just because you can? Of course not. Because you’re not a criminal. Don’t make excuses for criminal behavior.


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What’s the difference? You are blaming the victim for the crime.

Is it a smart or wise decision to leave your car unattended with the keys in the ignition? No. Is it wise to dress provocatively in an environment where predators may be lurking? No.

Do both individuals deserve to be victimized? Are they asking to be victimized? Absolutely not.

Put the blame on the criminal. I mean would you steal a car just because you can? Of course not. Because you’re not a criminal. Don’t make excuses for criminal behavior.


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Provocative clothing isn't what gets most women raped. Stupidity is, however often a key ingredient to becoming a crime victim.
 
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Provocative clothing isn't what gets most women raped. Stupidity is, however often a key ingredient to becoming a crime victim.
People who wish to use sex as a weapon of dominance are who get people raped. And it doesn't just have to be women on the receiving end. Neither does it always have to be men committing the act.
 

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Seems to me that failure to prevent a 13 year old driving would be reckless endangerment.
 

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I have never understood why someone would just abandon a car and leave it running, that is just an invitation for theft. That was his first mistake the second was shooting at a fleeing criminal.
It's called an "attractive nuisance" and if you leave your car running unattended and it's stolen, you could be liable for resultant injuries caused by the thief.
 

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Provocative clothing isn't what gets most women raped. Stupidity is, however often a key ingredient to becoming a crime victim.
No, none of that will get a woman raped. You can be a complete idiot and not get raped. It takes a person, a sick person with an “object to offend” to rape. People are raped, they do not “get themselves” raped.
 

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No, none of that will get a woman raped. You can be a complete idiot and not get raped. It takes a person, a stick person with an “object to offend” to rape. People are raped, they do not “get themselves” raped.
Sorry. Should have separated the sentences. Provocative clothing doesn't cause rape.

Leaving keys in a running car is stupidity.
 
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