It does have some merit I think, however... in a crisis situation your best bet when LEO arrives on scene is to do EXACTLY as they say! OBEY ALL COMMANDS!

They will not shoot you without giving you some sort of a command unless you are actively shooting when they arrive on scene.

I have found that often times, all the information you give to the dispatchers does not get transmitted to responding officers. You can not rely on others you ask to call 911 for you to give the correct details as well.

Police who will respond will be looking for a "person with a gun", when they see one, they will challenge them and give them commands.

You can verbally interact with them, but remember, whether you are ccw holder, good guy or whatever, if you have a gun in your hand when they arrive, they will have you drop your gun. I would do what they say, very slowly, as if YOUR LIFE DEPENDED ON IT!

Now in regards to a colored arm band or something... The New York City Police Dept. has somewhere in the neighborhood of 40,000 police officers and I'm not sure how many Port Authority Police and Transit Authority Police have but suffice it to say, that not every cop knows every other cop in that town. NYPD has for years used a method of having their "undercover officers" wear a certain identifying "color of the day" as an article of clothing or whatever. That "color of the day" is supposed to be transmitted to all uniformed officers during their "role call" in an attempt to avoid accidental shootings of UC Officers who can dress the part very well.

I can remember my dad telling me one time when he was working in NYC one night he was walking down the street and saw what he believed with his untrained eye to be two "homeless bums" beating the crap out of some guy on the sidewalk. A few moments later a marked NYPD patrol car screeched to a halt in front of them and assisted the "two undercover cops" effect their arrest and place the suspect in their patrol car.

My dad being from Missouri casually walked up to the "two bums" after they clearly knew the uniformed cops and asked them what the guy did... They responded "He was a rapist who failed to appear in court after being out on bond and they've been looking for him since he had been ID'd in another rape while he was out!" So you never know...

I don't know if they still use that method of ID for undercover cops these days or not, but I would assume they would almost have to have some method of keeping the uniformed cops from shooting the undercovers.

 

Police who will respond will be looking for a "person with a gun", when they see one, they will challenge them and give them commands.

I have thought about this a number of times. If I'm at the scene of some shootout or armed confrontation, I would use my cell phone and tell the dispatcher what was happening and give a clear description of myself and what I was wearing. I would also request that when the officers come on the scene that they do not shoot the good guy - me.

AlWAYS carry your gun. ALWAYS carry a cell phone. The dang cell phone can be more important at times than your gun.

 

The second thing a scumbag psychotic criminal will obtain (after his illegal guns & ammo) will be one of those arm bands.

"Don't mind me. Just one of the good guys here." Then he's headed for a parking lot and his car.

 

+1 :yup:

 

Ayoob's recommendation is to not be standing with a gun in hand as the first thing responding LEO's see, and to work with another "victim" nearby to act as the welcoming committee for the responding LEO's. This person can describe the basic situation, identify you (the GG), etc. All of this can be accomplished while you're not in directly line of fire. Not that this can be achieved in all situations, but it's a lot better than being caught standing up with a gun pointed at someone, since the appearances might well get you killed.

If the choice is available, that's preferable (for me). If not, then maintaining some cover is going to be critical, while the responding officers arrive and initially assess the situation. At which point, I would maintain good distance from the BG and respond to all commands. I'll get jumped on; I'll get cuffed; and once it's known I'm the GG, by virtue of my CHL, my actions, my story, and witness accounts, I'll be released. Better than getting dropped with 24 holes in my body, as a result of pulling a "Sayers" (aka getting my back up) over the cautious initial steps being made by the LEO's to assert control over a "man with a gun" (me).

 

I also used to think it would be helpful to carry some visible ID; not any more.

Just watch were you point the muzzle of your firearm when you face and identify threats - one may be a police officer doing the same and if he sees you pointing a firearm at him, your chances of survival go down quite a bit.

Carrying a weapons ID visibly on you serves of little purpose. The responding officer doesn't know if you are in fact involved in the crime being commited and will most likely detain you unless he feels certain you are not an involved party - he'll find your permit anyways when you are detained; besides the only thing he'll be looking at when he meets you is the firearm in your hands.

 

In my mind, there are 2 issues here - Identification to LE (which has been covered pretty well), and identification to other CCW'ers.

In either case, I hope that my actions will make it clear that I'm not the shooter. There are very few situations that would result in me clearing rooms with my gun in hand, but if I am mistaken for the shooter by LE or another armed citizen, I can only hope that they have enough good judgement not to shoot me if I'm not actively shooting an unarmed victim.

As far as arm bands or something, I don't really think that would be an effective solution. If it was well known enough to be useful, BG's would imitate it, just like they impersonate cops to break into people's houses.

JMI, but the best thing to do in an active shooter situation is to stay down, keep your weapon hidden, and if you have to use it, make sure it goes back into hiding as soon as possible if LE isn't immediately on scene.

 

I agree...once the officers are on scene the weapon is stowed and they take over, unless of course I have drawn on the threat and maybe am approached from behind. Then it's hands up, announce I am a CCW permit holder and wait/ask for commands, which would then be followed slowly.

No armbands for me....what if more than one BG is roaming around, I'd be advertising my gun. Good idea at first but.....nah.:wave:

Keep in mind all of this is hypothetical and I hope I would react as calmly as I think. Adrenaline is a powerful drug.

 

I have determined that IF I HAVE TIME and ONLY IF I HAVE TIME.. I will not only draw my gun (first) but I'll also take out permit. I will hold it (if I have to in my TEETH or hand or give to someone beside or just have it around) and when the police enter and start barking commands, I will drop my gun and hold up my ID. I believe it would show instant compliance and willingness to cooperate and establish that I am legally carrying a gun. Sure, I'll still get tackled, cuffed and hauled in for questioning, but first establishing the fact that I'm a CCW holder and THAT is why I have a gun will go a long way in easing my transition from shooter to citizen defending herself.

 

I have considered getting some sort of neck-wallet type of thing to keep my permit in (but out of sight under my shirt unless I need it), so that it is handy to show and easy to get to without making a motion that could look like I'm reaching for a holster. Something like on this page...
http://travelgizmos.com/TravelAccessories/PassportCases.htm

 

I wear my kevlar ninja suit under my street clothes, at the first sign of trouble I tear my clothes off and start leaping around like a pinball gone crazy, taking out everyone in the room not prominently displaying a CCW 'deputy' badge. Then, once all threats are neutralized I grab my clothes, put them in my tactical wheelbarrow and truck on out of there before the first cop on the scene gets chance to thank me.

YMMV.

 

Wow



I thought it was just me.

 

:haha: Finally, a foolproof plan!!

 

Honestly, who actually thinks these things up???????

Once the festivities are over, my gun goes back to its holster ASAP and gets covered up by whatever garment was covering it before.

If the cops get there before that, I will drop my weapon and do whatever the cops need me to do to secure the scene. I will say nothing and do nothing unless asked and/or commanded by the cops until things get sorted out.

Jeez, how about a dose of reality?

 

Who thinks what things up? I asked what people thought so isn't it obvious who thought this up? Was this just a smart ass comment or did I misunderstand you?

The information I was looking for so far has been excellent and of benefit to me. Thanks to those who have taken the time to really give good and well thought out comments.

 

Once the festivities are over, my gun goes back to its holster ASAP and gets covered up by whatever garment was covering it before.

Actually I was taught this is one of the biggest mistakes you can make, letting your guard down early.

Should I have to use my weapon (i.e. actually shoot) it stays in my hand and pointed at the BG with my head on a swivel looking for any other threats... until the police arrive and tell me to put my weapon down.

Of course it depends on the exact situation but that's my basic rule.

YMMV

In the mean time though I am going to see if I can find one of those Kevlar ninja suits... gotta link 0.02? :hand5: :biggrin2:

 

I've thought about this before, and if I was forced to draw my gun in a situation like this, I would be shouting "Drop your weapon! CCW!" repeatedly until the BG either dropped his weapon or I had to start shooting. This helps accomplish a few things. 1) It satisfies any legal requirements to give the BG a chance to surrender, 2) notifies surrounding citizens that an 'incident' is occurring and they need to take cover, and 3) lets nearby citizens (and also potential CCWs and UC LEO) know you are the good guy. Also, by notifiying surrounding citizens that an incident is occurring, you also have more witnesses to help you out in court. People will hear your shouts, turn around and hopefully see what is going on. Whereas, if the first thing they hear is gunfire, chances are good they will not have a clue what just happened.

Of course, not every situation will allow you to get off a warning first; you may have to shoot immediately, but shouting CCW to identify yourself at some point, either before or after the shooting, is a good idea.

And as soon as I see police, if my gun is in hand, I will immediately place it down on the ground (making sure the muzzle never faces the police), and back away from the gun with my hands in plain sight.

Following those rules should help in any situation.

 

I hesitate to bring this up but here is the one and only situation where I believe one of those hokey CCW badges may be of some value. I have talked with local police and they have found nothing illegal about having one, you would not be impersonating an officer according to them unless you were flashing it and posing in other ways as a cop to people. If you were to hold up this badge while covering the BG with your gun after a shooting it could very possibly show the cops responding that you are a good guy. Their misconception that this is a police badge would direct their attention to the real BG and off of you. Several officers have agreed with this scenario as being viable and not creating a problem for you so that is the only reason I bring it up. Take it for what it is worth.

 

Look Joe,

That does have some merit and may, in very limited circumstances be useful if used as you describe...

Massad Ayoob at one time even suggested it's use in limited scenario's. It can also let nervous bystanders see that you are in command of the situation before LEO's show up.

Years ago, where I worked, I was issued a $100 Blackington two tone Gold and Silver paramedic badge with the MO. State Seal in the middle. I carried it for a few years for just such a use but haven't in years as it was just too much bother and heavy in my wallet.

I have for a long time not felt the need for any kind of a "badge" for such uses... I think the amount of CCW in this country these days, it's not a totally foreign concept for LEO's to come across CCW's who have drawn their gun lawfully the way it was say 15-20 years ago.

I just don't see a need to be hassled or accused of impersonating a LEO.

When LEO arrives on scene, either have your gun put away or if it is more tactically sound to remain holding BG at gunpoint, then absolutely follow LEO's commands and directions. In under no circumstances argue with them.

Follow their commands and everything will be fine!

 

Havegunjoe, the hole in that theory is that BGs could start doing it, those badges are what? $30?
If I'm at a shooting and the cops arrive before I holster my weapon I will probably have both hands on my gun when they first see me, promptly followed by both hands empty as my gun clanks on the ground, followed by both hands behind my head or whatever else they dictate. No room to put a hand in my pocket for my 'deputy' badge unless I want some perforations.

 

Assuming I have the BG spread eagle face down on the ground with me standing over them gun and badge in hands I don't see how they could also pull a badge. The badges I have seen are around $70 just F.Y.I.. I didn't say it was flawless but I think in limited situations it is viable. I have not given this a lot of thought but I can see, upon the arrival of the police, holstering my gun while holding up the badge. As I said it may divert attention from you to the creep on the ground.

 

Some good thoughts. Luckily the majority of PD recognize me in my AO. If not I believe either cover the BG till PD arrives(if he is down) and possibly distance myself by backing up. space is your friend. Be ready to drop you gun and comply with PD orders.
If possible, call 911 and describe what I am wearing. Sometimes dispatch will be able to convey it to PD.

 

Guys, you don't need anything to ID yourself as a "good guy". If you are not wearing a uniform, you'd better be following directions. If you cant do that, we are going to have some problems.
Wear an arm band, get a goofball badge or a girl scout sash, it will make no difference to me. Being a CCW holder means nothing until its time to do paperwork. You are not a deputy, you are not a officer of any kind. You just took a few hours of your time to attend a minimal "training" course and filled out an application.
If you are involved in a incident, chances are you will be cuffed up and disarmed until things are sorted out, no matter what ID things you carry or if you know the secret handshake.

There's your dose of reality.

 

Some of us are were even smart enough to fill out the papers ourselves....go figure. Thanks for clearing that up for me.:hand10:

 

Crap... if the Cops come in I am surrendering, dropping the gun, whatever I need to do to surrender...

None of this "yell CCW" stuff. Not even to the Perp. Whats that all about? Your not doing law enforcement. Your protecting your life! Your gun is out because your going to shoot him before he kills you. Period. Shoot him and be done with it. If you don't think you need to shoot then why is your gun out?

And as to the Police... they not going to be listening. They want you to be no threat and immediately. You got a gun and there is a shooting. You better drop it and surrender fast and talk later. No talking the, just obey. You got no authority at that moment anyway with any carry permit. It just gave you the right to have the gun on you... and now your at a shooting with a gun... and your fair game.

There is no magic cure for a situation like this. Just try and survive it. Thats your goal.

 

None of this "yell CCW" stuff. Not even to the Perp. Whats that all about?

:haha:

I wanted to say something but waited to see who else would find that hilarious.


STOP!!! Or I'll CCW you! :buttkick:

 

I believe that there is no practical way of identifying ourselves in a tactical senario especially since anything available to us is available to bad guys. Not to mention most LEO dont know the CC laws anyway I would neither expect them to know this "super secret encoder ring" or believe it.

 

Guys, you don't need anything to ID yourself as a "good guy". If you are not wearing a uniform, you'd better be following directions. If you cant do that, we are going to have some problems.
Wear an arm band, get a goofball badge or a girl scout sash, it will make no difference to me. Being a CCW holder means nothing until its time to do paperwork. You are not a deputy, you are not a officer of any kind. You just took a few hours of your time to attend a minimal "training" course and filled out an application.
If you are involved in a incident, chances are you will be cuffed up and disarmed until things are sorted out, no matter what ID things you carry or if you know the secret handshake.

Yeah, Sixto, none of us are as good as you guys in uniform, huh?

Let's start off with what I call the three basic scenarios;

1. You've drawn and the BG capitulates. He's proned out with you covering him.
2. You've defended yourself and the BG is down, either motionless or groaning from the hit(s). You're still covering him.
3. You are actively engaged with a shooter at some distance. Ideally you are behind cover/concealment hoping the troops arrive real soon.

In the first two cases, you should be alert for the arrival of the PD. You should be busy scanning the area for accomplices or witnesses anyhow. Look & Listen for cops to arrive.

I advocate using your weak hand to semaphore to the arriving PD (over here fellas!). As they approach in their car, reholster your gun (perhaps putting your cover garment behind it to keep it exposed) and then raise your hands out to shoulder level away from your body. Thus you have shown them you want them on the scene and you have secured your weapon before they would be endangered by it. After that, it's simple to follow their commands.

If you don't see them arrive then as soon as they command you, follow their directions deliberately and promptly.

#3 is harder. If you are actively engaged in a firefight (e.g. trying to stop an active shooter a-la V.T.) when the cops arrive, you may or may not hear them approaching. If you do see officers arriving, that's the time to (a)holster your pistol if you can or lay it down and (b)show empty hands and point, gesture or communicate "Shooter in doorway!" or "Shooter behind the red car!" as appropriate. Once the cops are there, your job is to stay out of their way, even if that means being cuffed and pulled out of the area.

LEOs, please note - most BGs tend towards "mexican" carry or non-holster carry in pockets, the hood of "hoodies". That guy wearing a leather holster on his belt is probably a good guy. Add to it that he's not running from you and is complying with orders should be a clue.

 

Yeah, Sixto, none of us are as good as you guys in uniform, huh?

No where in my post does it say that. Its an indentification issue, not whos better than who.

LEOs, please note - most BGs tend towards "mexican" carry or non-holster carry in pockets, the hood of "hoodies". That guy wearing a leather holster on his belt is probably a good guy. Add to it that he's not running from you and is complying with orders should be a clue.

That might be true, it might not be. I will not take that risk.

 

Condescending? How so? Again, its an ID issue nothing more.

 

My bad....I misunderstood you I guess. I thought you were implying that we "weren't a deputy or officer of any kind, and just had 'minimal' training" and you didn't care either way.

Only the good threads turn into pissing contests.:yup:

 

I started this thread to gain a better understanding on techniques that we might use to help LEO's know who we are if I'm ever involved in a situation where I had to use my weapon. It is obviously not cut and dried.

I keep thinking about the mall shooting in Salt Lake City, Utah (probably because it happened close to me with friends killed and wounded). The off duty police officer who effectively haulted the killing rampage of the shooter was in all visible aspects a civilian with a gun. He had one distinct advantage in that his wife, who is a LE dispatcher, was on the phone talking to the Salt Lake PD dispatcher explaining the situation and giving details about her husbands dress and appearance so that Salt Lake City PD would not shoot him when they arrived.

This off duty police officer was the one who kept the BG at bay while the police coordinated their assault. They didn't disarm the off duty officer when they arrived, he continued to hold the BG at bay. They were able to identify him as a GG mainly because his wife gave them detailed visual clues. That will probably not happen to most who are involved in a liike situation so... my idea was to get feedback on how one can identify oneself to LEO's while in a critical crisis.

We don't always have a trained person in our pocket who can make a quick and detailed call to 911 and pass along the appropriate info without hyper ventilating and freaking out.

How did this thread turn into a pissing match? Come on people, just give your thoughts on the subject and stay away from the personal attacks. I was hoping LEO's would give us some professional insight and not make fun of girl scouts.

My arm band idea was probably not a good idea, I see that but then that was the point of the thread... to discuss options and technique and there is no need to belittle others.

 

How did this thread turn into a pissing match? Come on people, just give your thoughts on the subject and stay away from the personal attacks. I was hoping LEO's would give us some professional insight and not make fun of girl scouts.

My arm band idea was probably not a good idea, I see that but then that was the point of the thread... to discuss options and technique and there is no need to belittle others.

No one is belittling anyone, I just tend to tell it like I see it. The insight I am giving is there is no secret handshake or knock. You need to be smart about the situation your in, and understand the the responding LEO is going in blind with very little info. You may be mistaken for a bad guy, so follow directions. Dont get your pantys twisted if you are disarmed and cuffed, think about it from the LEOs point of view.

 

I'm no expert, but if I will cooperate at the first sign of a police officer. I wouldn't even consider holstering my gun. My gun will be be tossed or dropped and I'm backing away slowly from the weapon with hands up and moving slowly.

There is no one correct way to respond in every situation and each situation will vary in numerous ways. If I get shot by the police, my position will be that they were doing there job to the best of their ability. Once the details come out the shooting becomes an accident and accidents DO happen. If I'm dead, cremate me, if injured get me to the hospital. From then on what happens happens and I'll face my future with my head held high and dignity.

 

<redundant>

 

oO( I am just glad that i got busy and Six took the heat on this one lol . )

Look guys if you pull , or god forbid use a firearm in a manner that the police are called YOU ARE THE BAD GUY THEY RESPOND TO . Do exactly what they say , no more , no less . the faster they can " secure " YOU the faster they can deal with the situation that you faced in the first place . You will be detained in cuffs , cowboy up and deal with it . As far as another ccw goes ( unlikely unless they rob a gunshop or such ) If the firearm(s) are pointed at a bad guy they are friends , if the firearm is pointed at me they are another bad guy . It really is that simple .