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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I've taken two CCW classes in my life. The first one to get the permit and the second time to get it renewed. My second class had an instructor who has taught thousands of citizens, is a former LEO and police instructor. He also boasts how he has had over a dozen judges take his class and all have approved of his course and methods. He teaches something that I think goes against almost everything many of us have heard or read: Do not tell the police if you had to shoot in self-defense unless it was in your home.

The moment he said this the class gets stirred up in objection but I couldn't help but think there was some truth in his reasoning. He gives an example scenario:

You are walking to your car late at night in a parking garage. A man lunges at you with a knife from behind a car, his intent is without question. You draw your weapon, shoot and kill him.

He says to just get in your car and go home and live your life. Don't even call your lawyer. He gives a few reasons why:
1) You have no legal obligation to report this incident. You are protected from incriminating yourself and there isn't a single law being broken by leaving a dead or dying man who tried to attack you. He could have buddies nearby, HIV, or still be a threat even if wounded.
2) Even if there are witnesses or security footage, let them call the police. Let them put a out a description asking to meet with this person unknown for questioning. Again, you have no legal obligation to identify yourself.
3) If you truly acted in self defense, witnesses testimony or security footage will likely show this in which case the police aren't going to spend much effort finding you.
4) By calling the police you have everything to lose. You are risking a trial. Losing everything to a career motivated prosecutor or civil trial from the criminal's family. By not saying anything you haven't lost anything and chances are will never be contacted.
5) If you are identified and the police show up at your door. Could be six months later. Then say you would like to speak with a lawyer. Give your official statement and go home. He had a list of about a hundred incidents where the victim followed this method and it never went anywhere after giving a statement.

After hearing this almost everyone in the class speaks up with objections. What about the court of public opinion? He says that chances are you will never have to go to court if you don't say anything. If you do, what's the evidence? You didn't commit a crime by not saying anything. You can't be found guilty of anything by keeping your mouth shut. Again, you have no legal obligation to wait for the police, to tell them anything or to turn yourself in no matter how much they want to just "talk".

He does make some basic exceptions: If you had to shoot someone in your home and a wounded or dead criminal needs to be attended to. Or if when you drew your weapon the criminal runs away -- in which case its the "first one to call is the victim" scenario.

Now, I do not support his method but I do see some truth in it. But mainly only in the most clear cut cases of self defense, which most fall short of. So what are your thoughts? Is this guy crazy?
 

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Please do not take this the wrong way, but that guy is an idiot. "get in your car and drive away" What in gods name is he doing. If I were in his class I would have walked out....

We have to remember that someone was killed. There will be a homicide investigation. They are looking for a possible murderer. And he says just to leave. I am not a lawyer, but I would never tell any of my students to do something as stupid as what he has said...
 

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I am not a criminal lawyer or any type of lawyer so I don't know if this is true but it is some thing I need to find out if it is correct.

:confused:
 

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I think he is FOS,You just committed a MURDER,justified or not leaving the scene of a shooting can get you in deep Kimshee,the Evidence is the bullet and shell casing,what if his buddies removed the Knife/gun before the Cops arrive you just lost critical evidence to prove Self Defense.Leaving the scene without calling LEO after shooting somebody in the eyes of a Jury shows total disregard for what you did and they will be seeing the BG as a potential friend/relative that you just let bleed out.
 

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Did you get the names of those twelve or so judges he mentioned?
 

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Please do not take this the wrong way, but that guy is an idiot. "get in your car and drive away" What in gods name is he doing. If I were in his class I would have walked out....

We have to remember that someone was killed. There will be a homicide investigation. They are looking for a possible murderer. And he says just to leave. I am not a lawyer, but I would never tell any of my students to do something as stupid as what he has said...
Couldnt have said it better.
 

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Doesn't sound right to me. In my legal class that I took after my ccw class the attorney suggested something different. When the police arrive say "That person attacked me and I wish to press charges", even if they are dead on the gound. This way YOU are the victim. Then you say "I want to co-operate fully but wish to speak to my attorney"...... And that's it....

Nothing good can happen by talking to the police without your attorney.... This video was posted on the Rocky Mountain Gun Owners website. It's worth a look.


Dont Talk to Police - YouTube
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I completely agree with many of you. I have read all of Massad's books and would certainly trust him more than this instructor.
To be honest, the reason I didn't make a bigger stink about it is because I need the class to get my permit renewed and it was a two month wait just to get in. Wasn't about to make a stand on this however. I would have loved to have talked to him more about it but thought it best to just keep it moving.
 

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Yeah I wouldn't do this... You risk losing all evidence that it was self defense and I wouldn't want to be trying to prove it was SD months after the fact when they finally track you down
 

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...homicide...not murder...murder is a crime...homicide is merely taking a human life...

...that instructor, if he really teaches that, doen't need to be one...totally illegal and irresponsible advice...but what does HE care...he'll be home watching it on the news when his trusting student goes to prison...

I think he is FOS,You just committed a MURDER,justified or not leaving the scene of a shooting can get you in deep Kimshee,the Evidence is the bullet and shell casing,what if his buddies removed the Knife/gun before the Cops arrive you just lost critical evidence to prove Self Defense.Leaving the scene without calling LEO after shooting somebody in the eyes of a Jury shows total disregard for what you did and they will be seeing the BG as a potential friend/relative that you just let bleed out.
 

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I think he is FOS,You just committed a MURDER,justified or not leaving the scene of a shooting can get you in deep Kimshee,the Evidence is the bullet and shell casing,what if his buddies removed the Knife/gun before the Cops arrive you just lost critical evidence to prove Self Defense.Leaving the scene without calling LEO after shooting somebody in the eyes of a Jury shows total disregard for what you did and they will be seeing the BG as a potential friend/relative that you just let bleed out.
Also, the old "flight equals guilt" thing. Massad Ayoob and others have smacked this "advice" down many times before.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Did you get the names of those twelve or so judges he mentioned?
Believe it or not, one of the judges is listed on his website with a testimonial.
I don't want to directly link to his website but he teaches in the Omaha / Lincoln Nebraska area.
 

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…and live the rest of my life in fear that today is the day the cops put cuffs on me? Some unknown witness identified me? A security camera picking up my license plate?

No thank you.

If it's that clear that I shot justifiably, I'd rather get it agreed to by the legal system, and live my life knowing I did what I had to do, and ready to do it again if needed.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
…and live the rest of my life in fear that today is the day the cops put cuffs on me? Some unknown witness identified me? A security camera picking up my license plate?

No thank you.

If it's that clear that I shot justifiably, I'd rather get it agreed to by the legal system, and live my life knowing I did what I had to do, and ready to do it again if needed.
That's where I landed too. When students questioned him he had a response for everything. This is the one thing that he couldn't disagree with. I know I wouldn't be able to live a normal life knowing that at any moment I could get a knock at the door.
 

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Believe it or not, one of the judges is listed on his website with a testimonial.
I don't want to directly link to his website but he teaches in the Omaha / Lincoln Nebraska area.
Put me down as a "not".
 

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There is a certain reasonable logic to what he says, but the key issue is whether or not
the law in your state would actually be that you have no duty to report. You might not have
a duty to report the death, but a duty to report the discharge of your gun. See, it could get
complicated.

Then also, police, judges, jurors are all human and they are likely to attach meaning to your
departure from the scene.

I'm going to stop short of saying the guy is an idiot as there might remotely be a state or city
or judicial jurisdiction in which this strategy might work. Maybe you are in one such.
I doubt it though.

I think you'd have to do a lot of research on your state's various laws before trusting what that man suggested.

What the man is suggesting is quite similar to leaving the scene of an accident without putting
a note on the windshield of the car you sideswiped in the parking lot. It only works on the assumption
that you get away with it.

Also, murder charges have no statute of limitations. What are you going to do 34 years after the
incident if you are charged and ALL evidence supporting your righteousness has disappeared while
your memory of the incident too has become blurred ? That sounds like deep doo to me.
 
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