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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Apr 13, 2013
By Christine Byers [email protected] 314-340-8087

My Comments: OUCH! Just what we need right now! An NRA Certified Instructor, no less - though the NRA is not responsible for his misdeeds.

.....An undercover sting that followed resulted in criminal charges against Donald Crangle, 52, a prolific trainer of Missouri’s armed citizens and the first to be accused of wrongdoing.

Police are now enlisting other jurisdictions to identify the scope of the problem and are trying to decide what to do with at least 1,770 people toting guns in public on Crangle’s say-so.

Two undercover officers signed up for Crangle’s next class, on March 22, at his north St. Louis County home. In just three hours, Crangle told the 11 students they had completed the course, even though they had not met any of state-mandated criteria, said Lt. Chris Stocker, whose detectives obtained the charges.

.....(This investigation started because of) .........A St. Louis County police records clerk was stumped when a concealed-carry permit applicant presented a certificate showing he had received the required eight hours of firearms training that very day.

She looked at her watch. It was about 1:30 p.m. March 5. She asked exactly when he took the class. It started at 10 a.m., he said. She alerted supervisors.

There is a lot more to read about 'his instruction to students': Charges against St. Louis County gun instructor put concealed-carry permits in doubt : News
 

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Well that's not good. Hopefully other instructors have their stuff together. I wonder if his "partner" will be allowed to continue teaching students
 

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Greed can be very costly!
This instructor is about to find that out.:pokey:
 

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What a stupid idiot. This business is not that hard, play within the rules of the game...Good lord..
 

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Hopefully they'll give the 1,770 permit holders some kind of grace period to get re-certified. There are two shoes here too - the Instructor, woe to him, and the students. They knew, or should have known, the class was inadequate.
 

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I attended the South Carolina CWP class today. The two instructors (both LEOs) talked about 6 instructors in SC that were arrested last year for the same kind of stuff. I guess it didn't hit the news then.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Hopefully they'll give the 1,770 permit holders some kind of grace period to get re-certified. There are two shoes here too - the Instructor, woe to him, and the students. They knew, or should have known, the class was inadequate.
The some of the students should have know darn'd well known better. At least the ones after he got lazy and greedy. We can only assume when he got his credentials, early on, that he was providing the proper instruction. At some point he 'crossed that line'.

I would be inclined to agree that some of the students should have know better, and did not represent us best either.

Too bad that in this time of the 'Great Gun Grab of 13', most of the students may end up getting revoked as a knee-jerk reaction, without real investigation.
 

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Unfortunately, far too many want in and out with the minimum inconvenience to their all-important schedules. It will be interesting to see how it works out.
 
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Discussion Starter #9
I attended the South Carolina CWP class today. The two instructors (both LEOs) talked about 6 instructors in SC that were arrested last year for the same kind of stuff. I guess it didn't hit the news then.
Assume you passed the course of instruction! Congrats for doing it the legal and correct way! :danceban:
 

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If there was no such thing as ridiculus mandatory training wwe would never have these problems.
 

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We don't have mandatory training requirements here in Washington, and we don't have any more firearms handling problems among our permitted citizenry than the states that do. I am in favor of getting as much training as you can afford to get, as soon as you can afford to get it. I am not in favor of MANDATORY requirements, though. This sort of profiteering is certainly one of the results of that.

If I was in this class, I would have turned them in immediately. I would have felt completely RIPPED OFF! If I am going to pay for training, I want to receive everything I paid for. Good training is not a check box on a form. It COULD be the difference between life and death, or freedom and prison, or prosperity and poverty. I think anyone who took a class like that without demanding that the full course of training be provided is stupid, and is just as much a part of the problem as the instructor.
 

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Unfortunately any time money is involved there will be those who try to cheat the system. Hopefully they will set and example with the instructor so others think twice before trying it.
 

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A stack of Ohio CHLs have been revoked under the exact same circumstances.
 

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If there was no such thing as ridiculus mandatory training wwe would never have these problems.
Can't accept that. The issue isn't a law that we might or might not agree with, the issue is that gun laws were being flouted, putting what were essential illegal carriers on the street as legal (illegal, because they didn't complete the course).

You wouldn't say, "If she hadn't dressed that way, she wouldn't have been raped," do you?

Or, If that car wasn't driving on the highway, he wouldn't have hit it while driving drunk," do you? (EDIT: Not making a moral equivalence argument here - more to the point of transferring blame away from the guilty party for inane reasons).

The blame here lies in two places only: (1) the instructors; and (2) those who paid for the course and then went ahead and got their license.

Personally, I think that any of them they can prove didn't actually take a course, should lose their CCW.
 

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Can't accept that. The issue isn't a law that we might or might not agree with, the issue is that gun laws were being flouted, putting what were essential illegal carriers on the street as legal (illegal, because they didn't complete the course).

You wouldn't say, "If she hadn't dressed that way, she wouldn't have been raped," do you?

Or, If that car wasn't driving on the highway, he wouldn't have hit it while driving drunk," do you? (EDIT: Not making a moral equivalence argument here - more to the point of transferring blame away from the guilty party for inane reasons).

The blame here lies in two places only: (1) the instructors; and (2) those who paid for the course and then went ahead and got their license.

Personally, I think that any of them they can prove didn't actually take a course, should lose their CCW.
I am not excusing the instructer at all. He needs to be punishes severely. And if they find out if and any students knew he was taking a shortcut the need to be punished also. It is the law and needs to be obeyed..just a stupid law.

By the way...the anlogies were out of line..escpecially the one about rape.

You should know my post was a statement about how stupid I think mandatory training is. Your analogies are not even in line with my statement and intent.
 

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Look how much money the military could save by cutting out all that needless firearms training. That would solve the budget crisis.
 
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Look how much money the military could save by cutting out all that needless firearms training. That would solve the budget crisis.
OK.....explain to me with out sarcasm how these two topics are the same? I can come up with a million reasons why they are not. If you want to argue that mandatory training is a goow idea then I am here to listen to your arguments.

Hmmmmmm ....carrying a weapon in the military is a job and they need to be trained. Carrying a weapon for SD is a God given right that is not suppose to be infringed on. Did I sum that OK?
 
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Sometime back,that happened to an instructor in Columbia.I think it was SLED who went in undercover.The class only lasted 4 hrs.Busted.Never looked to see,if anything happened to his students,or what exactly happened to him..I took the class in 06,and i think, we signed something, saying we had taken an 8 hr class.I can't remember for sure.Students may need to be careful also.
 

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I am not excusing the instructer at all. He needs to be punishes severely. And if they find out if and any students knew he was taking a shortcut the need to be punished also. It is the law and needs to be obeyed..just a stupid law.

By the way...the anlogies were out of line..escpecially the one about rape.

You should know my post was a statement about how stupid I think mandatory training is. Your analogies are not even in line with my statement and intent.
You did notice my edit stating that I was making no moral equivalence, right? The seriousness of the situations between them are vast, I completely agree, and that's why I edited it to make sure you knew that I recognized it and wasn't trying to corner you in a position of arguing for either of those other analogies - but rather, just highlighting the same logical fallacy that I thought you were making, because I did think that the intent of your post was to argue that if the law itself didn't exist, then there was no issue and as such, the fault lay in bad law, rather than personal actions.

Going back to the post itself, I can't understand how any of the students wouldn't know it was a shortcut. What I'd worry about, is if he started out teaching real courses, and then somewhere along the way decided to just mail out certificates. It'd be unfair to those who took the course to be tainted by what happened.

All in all, a complete mess.
 
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