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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know this kind of thing has been discussed over and over but ....

I'm looking to talk to some of the church elders about CCW. There are a couple who are very concerned because "guns are dangerous" and, due to that, only one member has been authorized to carry in the building or on the grounds. I don't see that as being a good solution. It basically requires that the member be at all functions (which they can't do) and that they're in a position at all times to keep an eye on things. Again, that isn't possible either.

I've scoured the net and come up with a number of links. The first set I've termed "Bad Stuff" and they mostly deal with church attacks. The second set of links are for statistics and various convincing material & research.

I'm looking for additional links that you have collected, particularly dealing with safety and such.

Bad Stuff (in no particular order)
Church Crime History
Pastor Killed, 2 Hurt in Illinois Church Shooting - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com
Madisonville Parishioners Robbed at Gunpoint
The Rocky Mount Telegram
Local News
George Tiller Fatally Shot at Wichita Church - NBC Action News KSHB-TV 41
Two dead, suspect in custody in Knox church shooting
Little Rock shooter may have had other targets
Church Security Related Incident in Temecula, California Kkottongnae Retreat Camp Shooting | Church security site for church safety, church video surveillance, church security training, church safety information and the latest church security news.
2008 Church Shootings up 175% over 2007 | Church security site for church safety, church video surveillance, church security training, church safety information and the latest church security news.
Church Shooting-6 People Injured While Attending Funeral in Chicago | Church security site for church safety, church video surveillance, church security training, church safety information and the latest church security news.
Murderer Still At Large, New Jersey - Stormfront
Pastor Killed In Covington Church Shooting - Cincinnati breaking news, weather radar, traffic from 9News | Channel 9 WCPO.com
Churchgoers subdue would-be robber on Cape Cod - Projo 7 to 7 News Blog | Rhode Island news | The Providence Journal
Two Die After Clearfield Church Shooting - News Story - WJAC Johnstown
Church shooting | NBC13.com
Colorado Shooting Highlights Churches' New Emphasis on Security - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com
5 Dead In Louisiana Church Shooting - CBS News
Church, Police Probe 7 Murders - CBS News
Police Seek Leads in Shooting at Church - washingtonpost.com
Church shooting suspect arrested in California
Pastor attacked at Henrico church | Richmond Times-Dispatch
Gunman Robs Henderson Church - KTRE.com Lufkin and Nacogdoches |
Man, 52, Charged In Neosho Church Shooting - Kansas City News Story - KMBC Kansas City
10TV | WBNS-10TV, Central Ohio News
Westerville teens set August date for Columbine-style attack, authorities say | The Columbus Dispatch
USATODAY.com - Woman killed in Detroit church shooting
Woman killed in front of churchgoers - Crime & courts- msnbc.com
10 kidnapped in McDonald's robbery
Luby's massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Statistics & Safety
Ministry Violence Statistics
FBI Statistics Show Crime Falling Despite Recession Notes from the Bartender
FBI — Crime Stats - Press Room - Headline Archives 12-21-09
Hate Crime Statistics, 2008
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics/Total%20NICS%20Background%20Checks.htm
Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Carrying Concealed Statistics
Concealed Carry
Students for Concealed Carry on Campus - ConcealedCampus.com
CCW Statistics
studentsforconcealedcarryoncampus.com
Debunking specious arguments against concealed carry - Pt. 1 - The Broadside : Colorado Springs Gazette, CO
Debunking specious arguments against concealed carry - Pt. 2 - The Broadside : Colorado Springs Gazette, CO
Concealed-carry quietly in effect | Wichita and Kansas news | Crime, courts, weather, education, politics, events | Wichita Eagle
Firearms ownership: One of the safest activities there is
NevadaBrad CCW
Democratic Underground - Except that accidental gun death rates have been in decline for decades - Democratic Underground
Perry: Concealed guns should be allowed everywhere | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Texas Regional News
 

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Many facts and stats in those lists which boil down to a very basic premise...:blink:

Stay armed...any time, any place:yup:...stay safe!
 

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How does Ohio law read? Either the building is posted as a no-gun zone or it's not. Can public places in Ohio pick and choose who they let carry in the building?
 

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Do they have a sign posted? If not, why ask 'em anything?

Now, I engaged our pastoral staff on the issue of security; Mas Ayoob sent me to some great advisors who really helped me develop my approach. Luckily, the church was already putting a plan together, and I got to be a part of it.

Assuming they have a sign posted and you need to talk to them--don't go in with scare tactics right away, just voice your concerns and listen to their response. If they are really Hoplophobic, then it's critical that you present yourself (and BE) as a reasoned, concerned, and compassionate advocate of safety in the church.

If they blow a gasket, find another church. Heck, Baptists like guns...LOL
 

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In Michigan Churchs

In Michigan you cannot carry in a church unless you get written permission from your pastor. I say written because word of mouth might not hold up in court. Get it on church letterhead. At my church we have the safest parking lot on any Sunday. Our ushers carry. We had a mens Shop, Supper, and Shoot night before Christmas and had about 50 men show up. We told them if you don't own a gun we will provide one for you. We are getting some new gun owners in our flock. We are Baptist. Praise the the Lord and pass the ammunition!!!!!!!
 

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As a pastor, I encourage those in the congregation who hold CHL's to carry. We are the safest people around: been checked out, trained, certified... the more the merrier/safer.

In TX, a building has to have a 30.06 sign posted to prohibit carry.

I like the motto: always carry, never tell.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Ohio law

How does Ohio law read? Either the building is posted as a no-gun zone or it's not. Can public places in Ohio pick and choose who they let carry in the building?
According to Ohio law, a church is a CPZ by default unless authorized.

A valid license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any of the following places: ..... (6) Any church, synagogue, mosque, or other place of worship, unless the church, synagogue, mosque, or other place of worship posts or permits otherwise

That's what I'm trying to do - talk in a non-scary way to see about allowing more than just one person to carry. I'm planning on talking to one of the "concerned" elders tomorrow or soon.
 

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In our church many have their CHL and carry at church.

The Pastor carries in every service and encourages members to get their Chl and carry.
 

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According to Ohio law, a church is a CPZ by default unless authorized.

A valid license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any of the following places: ..... (6) Any church, synagogue, mosque, or other place of worship, unless the church, synagogue, mosque, or other place of worship posts or permits otherwise

That's what I'm trying to do - talk in a non-scary way to see about allowing more than just one person to carry. I'm planning on talking to one of the "concerned" elders tomorrow or soon.
Wow. That's unfortunate. I'd have real problems with a church council deciding someone is more trustworthy with their CCW than I am. Seems they need to have a set policy. Either they respect Ohio's CCW holders en masse, or they don't. But picking and choosing is not cool. What would they base their decision on? They have no ability to run background checks, they aren't likely to require a proficiency test, etc. I'd be pretty twisted if they want to pursue a pick and choose policy. If they had a flat no-guns policy, I could live with that (I wouldn't agree with it, but I'd understand it). Pick and choose, no way.

I guess that's how I'd angle my case.


Edit to add: The church's mission is to preach and save souls. The state's job is to determine who can and who can't carry CCW. The church needs to set one global policy and live with it. Deciding who can and who cannot carry CCW is not part of the church's mission. You'd think they would want to focus on more important issues.
 

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The fact remains that most mass killings occurred in gun free zones, eg. schools, post offices, military bases, etc. When will people get it through their thick , liberal, skulls that BG's don't obey the laws. They commit crimes of opportunity, and where better than places where law abiding citizens can't carry? Doh!
 

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The fact remains that most mass killings occurred in gun free zones, eg. schools, post offices, military bases, etc. When will people get it through their thick , liberal, skulls that BG's don't obey the laws. They commit crimes of opportunity, and where better than places where law abiding citizens can't carry? Doh!
I'm always amazed at peoples' inability to understand that simple concept.
 

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Wow. That's unfortunate. I'd have real problems with a church council deciding someone is more trustworthy with their CCW than I am. Seems they need to have a set policy. Either they respect Ohio's CCW holders en masse, or they don't. But picking and choosing is not cool. What would they base their decision on? They have no ability to run background checks, they aren't likely to require a proficiency test, etc. I'd be pretty twisted if they want to pursue a pick and choose policy. If they had a flat no-guns policy, I could live with that (I wouldn't agree with it, but I'd understand it). Pick and choose, no way.

I guess that's how I'd angle my case.

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I would assume they do not want to post an "ALL CPL Holders Welcome" sign since they do not know who might be visting. But since they are giving some members the approval to carry I would think that the original poster might have a chance, provided the church leaders feel he is stable and trustworthy and uses common sense.

It sounds like in Ohio the law says the church can post to allow all or no concealed carry. I don't even know then in that case if a written note from the church would hold up in court if the church was posted no carry. The law doesn't seem to cover that.

One another note, I know that there are those that feel that the church isn't qualified to determine who is safe to carry there and who isn't . The point is it appears thats the way Ohio law is set up. It's simular here in Michigan, although maybe better spelled out, in that we can carry in church, provided we have permission from the authority in charge. It is by default granted on an individual case by case bases.
 

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First, listen to the advice you've received. Don't go in and throw up all over them with all of the links you've provided here. It will overload them and you will lose them FAST.

If you want a more biblical perspective, check my blog (link in sig) and there are several entries about "Christianity and Self Defense." Those provide a pretty good biblical basis for allowing defense of self and others in church. (if I do say so my very own self...humility has always been the greatest of my many qualities:p)

Then seek understanding and dialog. Spend the time to really let the church board understand the issue and get comfortable with your approach. The long term dividends are worth the short term pain.
 

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My church has 3 cops, and myself that carry. One of the cops carries openly, the others concealed. I've actually had people approach me and tell me they feel safer at church with us carrying.
 

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Kemar, this has been talked about before on this forum, but it's always a good topic of discussion. A couple other sites you can check for more info would be Christiansecuritynetwork-dot-org, churchsecuritymember-dot-com, and churchsecurityalliance-dot-com (same folks as securitymember). Subscription maybe required to get to some of the meat, but free info there, too. If you want to spend a little $$, these folks have handbooks, training and "presentation" CDs/DVDs, etc.

When you get permission, be sure you have it in writing, signed by the leader of your church (the one who can actually give permission). Keep a copy and be sure the church has one on file, too.
 

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Wow. That's unfortunate. I'd have real problems with a church council deciding someone is more trustworthy with their CCW than I am. Seems they need to have a set policy. Either they respect Ohio's CCW holders en masse, or they don't. But picking and choosing is not cool. What would they base their decision on? They have no ability to run background checks, they aren't likely to require a proficiency test, etc. I'd be pretty twisted if they want to pursue a pick and choose policy. If they had a flat no-guns policy, I could live with that (I wouldn't agree with it, but I'd understand it). Pick and choose, no way.

I guess that's how I'd angle my case.


Edit to add: The church's mission is to preach and save souls. The state's job is to determine who can and who can't carry CCW. The church needs to set one global policy and live with it. Deciding who can and who cannot carry CCW is not part of the church's mission. You'd think they would want to focus on more important issues.
I would assume they do not want to post an "ALL CPL Holders Welcome" sign since they do not know who might be visting. But since they are giving some members the approval to carry I would think that the original poster might have a chance, provided the church leaders feel he is stable and trustworthy and uses common sense.

It sounds like in Ohio the law says the church can post to allow all or no concealed carry. I don't even know then in that case if a written note from the church would hold up in court if the church was posted no carry. The law doesn't seem to cover that.

One another note, I know that there are those that feel that the church isn't qualified to determine who is safe to carry there and who isn't . The point is it appears thats the way Ohio law is set up. It's simular here in Michigan, although maybe better spelled out, in that we can carry in church, provided we have permission from the authority in charge. It is by default granted on an individual case by case bases.
I was wondering what TedBeau said in his first line; is it they want control of who carries? I am not sure if I would want just anyone walking in the door with a gun. I was a pastor for a time and am currently a pew sitter for reasons I will not go into here except to say Burnout. I would have want to know who was carrying as a pastor --- I am the shepherd and I need to know the sheepdogs. i.e. I want to discuss with you why you carry. As some here have said there are those who are paranoid types and I would want to know they carry so I can know who to count on who's line of fire to avoid if the SHTF. Also, I would not really want vistors to be carrying --- do not know you; do not know how you handle life and if you have a gun you have my life, my family's life and my congregations life in your hands.

In Kansas I do not need the churches/pastors permission to carry in the church but I did feel out the pastors view when he came and after finding out he has a gun owner and a handgunner I told him I had a carry permit and did carry in church. He had not problem with it. He also asked after the IL pastor got shot if I would have his back in the same situation. I said yes but I hope I would see it a bit quicker and stop the guy before it got that far.
 

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I am not sure if I would want just anyone walking in the door with a gun. ... I would have want to know who was carrying as a pastor --- I am the shepherd and I need to know the sheepdogs. i.e. I want to discuss with you why you carry.
I don't understand how that's important. When you're sitting in a restaurant you don't get to know who around you is armed. The on-duty manager at WalMart doesn't get to know who in his store is armed. And so forth throughout just about every moment of your public going-ons. Why is it important for a pastor to know who sitting in his pews is armed?
 

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perhaps any additional training would help sway them , but a real calm and gentle conversation of almost a fatherly tone , will help convince them of sincerity of safety .

you don't want to come off as deputy dawg , but more of a silent invisible shield ever vigilant .

i'll pray for Gods will and wisdom to rule .

elance
 

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I did a school Power point presentation... Short... but i put good strong points in... I also put in questions and different situations that got them involved and thinking so they would pay attention better...

That's just how i give the "Gun's are Good" speech think about it.
 
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