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Discussion Starter #1
Please post your personal opinion on his arguments for a Hi Cap 9mm handgun.
I copied this from another forum.
I will reserve my own comments until later.
I know that some of these arguments are quite old but, we have a lot of new members these recent days.


"I don't have a ton of experience shooting or as a cop (you're still pretty much considered a rookie in the NYPD until you go over 5 years) but I have seen and read enough to make me think that hi-cap 9mm is the way to go for self defense. Here are my arguments and I look forward to some feedback.

-Avoiding reloads: I don't care how fast you are at doing it, it still takes valuable time. I can keep banging away while you're reloading a revolver or 1911. You're only a good shot while you've got bullets to shoot, and reloading means time taken away from aiming and firing.

-Help is on the way: I recently went to a call where a guy had jumped out of a high window during the night to commit suicide. Despite the fact that a number of people heard the loud bang when the guy hit the interior courtyard, no one called us until dawn when the body was visible. One loud noise was just not enough to worry people enough to call 911. My guess is that this mentality may apply to gunfights as well. A couple of shots may not rouse some sleepy neighbors for long but a sustained string of shots will get my buddies rolling in my direction. This may not help me actually "win" a fight but may help in getting a bad guy caught or getting myself medical attention.

-Cover: A hi-cap 9mm gives me some rounds that I can send downrange to buy time for my partner to find cover. Maybe it keeps my opponent's head down for a second or two allowing us to retreat or flank him. The time bought may allow someone with you to bring another weapon to bear or allow your family seconds more to run or lock interior doors.

-Practice: 9mm is cheap. We don't get paid well here in NYC for what we deal with, and I suspect a lot of other people here are short on cash too. Cheaper ammo means more time on the range for me. If you've backed out of going shooting even once because of money then I think its an issue worth considering.

-Multiple assailants: Spread the love! I wouldn't want to deal with more than one perp and have only a handful of bullets before needing to reload. Even if you have an extra mag with you, an extra hi-cap mag means you can hang in a fight longer. "Shots fired" is a priority call here, and I suspect it is everywhere. Enough bullets might keep your opponents in place and at bay until help arrives.

-Time: I've kind of touched on this already, but it deserves special mention. I'm a big fan of buying time. Even if I haven't killed an attacker or even stopped him from continuing to attack, extra rounds give me time. Time to think and plan or time for help to come. If my initial reaction to the incident was one of surprise then every second I can keep an attacker's head down is time for me to recover psychologically.

-Intimidation: I get the sense that a lot of people think that the fact that they own a larger caliber handgun may cause a perp to think again and back down. I can tell you that I've never heard of anyone saying anything but the other guy had a "black" or "silver" gun. This includes cops involved in gunfights. If you believe a perp is going to think "Damn, that guy has a .45..I'd better get out of here" I disagree with you. If the gun's presence doesn't make the guy take off, its type won't make a difference. I guess if it makes you more confident, then its a good thing but I'd still rather have the extra rounds.

-Aim: I'm sure some will disagree with how important it is or how much it affects them, but I think 9mm's lower recoil means less time to recover and aim and those fractions of a second may come in handy.

-SHTF scenario: 9mm is available.

I know hi-caps are expensive for non-LE and hopefully that will all change in a few weeks. Outside of all that, I hope some of you will see that getting them is worth the price."
 

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Ah, yes, the old "spray and pray" doctrine. Kinda sucks for anyone other than the BG who happens to be downrange and not behind hard cover.....

Matt
 

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Might check the last 20 years of NYPD SOP 9 (NYPD's Firearms Discharge Report) To see how many MOS reloaded in course of shooting.

To each his own.
 

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"I don't have a ton of experience shooting or as a cop (you're still pretty much considered a rookie in the NYPD until you go over 5 years) but I have seen and read enough to make me think that hi-cap 9mm is the way to go for self defense. Here are my arguments and I look forward to some feedback.

Has me at hello.

-Avoiding reloads: I don't care how fast you are at doing it, it still takes valuable time. I can keep banging away while you're reloading a revolver or 1911. You're only a good shot while you've got bullets to shoot, and reloading means time taken away from aiming and firing.

Granted and I can see why a LEO in NYC would be terribly worried about capacity. However, larger bore sizes are more comforting without giving up much in capacity. I personally would rather face down a junky with something starting with "4".

-Help is on the way: I recently went to a call where a guy had jumped out of a high window during the night to commit suicide. Despite the fact that a number of people heard the loud bang when the guy hit the interior courtyard, no one called us until dawn when the body was visible. One loud noise was just not enough to worry people enough to call 911. My guess is that this mentality may apply to gunfights as well. A couple of shots may not rouse some sleepy neighbors for long but a sustained string of shots will get my buddies rolling in my direction. This may not help me actually "win" a fight but may help in getting a bad guy caught or getting myself medical attention.

He's proposing that we indiscriminately fire to attract help? What? He lost me here. A whistle, or better yet perhaps a cell phone instead perchance?

Plus I don't know about you guys, but I don't have an LEOs immunity to civil and criminal charges for firing indiscriminately and hitting someone.

-Cover: A hi-cap 9mm gives me some rounds that I can send downrange to buy time for my partner to find cover. Maybe it keeps my opponent's head down for a second or two allowing us to retreat or flank him. The time bought may allow someone with you to bring another weapon to bear or allow your family seconds more to run or lock interior doors.

Covering a lane of fire while clearing a building means you cover a lane of fire, not that you run about shooting the place up! I can see his point where he might need cover fire at times but I still don't think this applies to me as a civilian. I don't have a partner to cover for one thing.

-Practice: 9mm is cheap. We don't get paid well here in NYC for what we deal with, and I suspect a lot of other people here are short on cash too. Cheaper ammo means more time on the range for me. If you've backed out of going shooting even once because of money then I think its an issue worth considering.

Priorities. That's what it's all about.

-Multiple assailants: Spread the love! I wouldn't want to deal with more than one perp and have only a handful of bullets before needing to reload. Even if you have an extra mag with you, an extra hi-cap mag means you can hang in a fight longer. "Shots fired" is a priority call here, and I suspect it is everywhere. Enough bullets might keep your opponents in place and at bay until help arrives.

Eh, if I have someone "at bay" I'm getting the heck out of there. I do agree a reload is a prudent measure and multiple reloads is even more prudent especially for police work. This multiple assailants argument has never made any sense to me anyway. Your assailants are not going to sit there and let you empty your 33 round magazine into each of them 5 or 6 rounds at a time.

-Time: I've kind of touched on this already, but it deserves special mention. I'm a big fan of buying time. Even if I haven't killed an attacker or even stopped him from continuing to attack, extra rounds give me time. Time to think and plan or time for help to come. If my initial reaction to the incident was one of surprise then every second I can keep an attacker's head down is time for me to recover psychologically.

Shouldn't we focus on ending the threat ASAP and not extending it?

-Intimidation: I get the sense that a lot of people think that the fact that they own a larger caliber handgun may cause a perp to think again and back down. I can tell you that I've never heard of anyone saying anything but the other guy had a "black" or "silver" gun. This includes cops involved in gunfights. If you believe a perp is going to think "Damn, that guy has a .45..I'd better get out of here" I disagree with you. If the gun's presence doesn't make the guy take off, its type won't make a difference. I guess if it makes you more confident, then its a good thing but I'd still rather have the extra rounds.

I agree.

-Aim: I'm sure some will disagree with how important it is or how much it affects them, but I think 9mm's lower recoil means less time to recover and aim and those fractions of a second may come in handy.

9mm and .40 S&W don't really feel all that different to me, honestly. I disagree.

-SHTF scenario: 9mm is available.

Yeah you'll never find .45 ACP in any significant quantity... :tongue:

I know hi-caps are expensive for non-LE and hopefully that will all change in a few weeks. Outside of all that, I hope some of you will see that getting them is worth the price.

I agree you should use your preferred firing platform to its fullest advantage. If you prefer a double stack magazine by all means get the largest capacity you can.

He seems like a good guy and he'd be interesting to talk to for perspective, but I think he's overgeneralizing a bit. Let's compare apples to apples for a bit. NYPD carries the Glock 19 right? How is 15 rounds of 124 grain 9x19 significantly so much better than 12 rounds of 230 grain .45 ACP? I submit that it is not, but rather another viable choice in a large and oversaturated market.
 

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Nothing wrong with 9mm , just not for me. If 7 or 13 rnds . in a fight don't do the job, you are in deep $%^& anyway.
 

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I'll echo - ''each to his own".

Carrying as I do 15+1 9mm does not tempt me to try any spray and pray - shot placement (attempted) would be same whether 9mm, .45acp or even bigger. Every round must count.

I agree re economy for practice, but I could well practice with 226 and decide to carry the 220 - both being very close in operation. This is a personal thing - and I'd never feel I have to really justify my choice - I have rationalized to my own satisfaction. :smile:
 

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It seems like most of the points are made from an LEO perspective - which is cool. Being somewhat new to CCW - I've realized that much of the advice out there is LEO based - and often does not apply to us non-LEO guys.

As far as price of ammo - I'll say it again. Reload. If you want to shoot to the point where cost is a concern - reload. If that gets too cost prohibitie - then cast. Don't compromise on caliber choice due to cost of practice - there is no need.

I'm not saying 9mm is a compromise - but it's not a reason to me to shoot 9mm over something else. Availability? I have nearly 2,000 .45 rounds sitting next to my bed - freshly reloaded. Ha! :p

Follow-up/less recoil - he may have a point. But again - if that is a concern - heavier gun also solves the problem.

I have no problem with 9mm - my main complaint is those thick blocky hicaps! I like my slim concealable 1911. :)
 

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Plenty of good responses on this, so being that I have my own opinions on caliber,I want to address something else. His thinking bothers me. Civilian or LEO, we all should have a "plan A" and a "plan B"[c d e f---] for bad days. His thinking seems to indicate that when the "SHTF", he's off and running in "Plan B" only. Rather than "Oh crap! Pop pop good--pop pop good. It's , pop pop pop pop pop pop- where are they-pop pop pop pop pop pop-c'mon guys-pop pop pop pop ect. Makes me uncomfortable. Any one else? :eek:
"Every round must count" P95 :3a:
 

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Why is it that people on the internet who carry low round count pistols seem to always think someone with a hicap is a "spray and pray" shooter?

He has some valid points, most of which can be proven in FoF. I think if more armchair shooters spent some time "shooting" at real people in realistic situations with Sims/Airsoft there would be less people walking around with 6-9 shots in their guns.

The proof is in the puddin.
 

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Why bother winning the fight if you are going to lay down cover fire in an urban environment in a non-warfare situation? I'd rather be shot.

The families of the grannies lying face down dead in their cheerios due to your negligent firearms discharge will have criminal charges to file as well as a whiz bang civil suit. Negligent homicide is the first extra sticky charge I can think of.

So while you are being sodomized in the state "pokey" (pun intended), you are secure in the knowledge that your family is safe and sound under a bridge.

Unfortunately, aftermath planning IS a tactical consideration.
 

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You assume there are "no-shoots" in the background. Without the assumption the argument falls apart, and cover fire looks to have it's place eh?

Cover fire or "suppression fire" has it's place. People don't want to admit that because they are scared to death of litigation, but it does not take much imagination to see where it would be valuable.

Never say never. Unless you truly believe that all CHL fights are 3x3x3?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
This persons mindset is not idiosyncratic to Law Enforcement. Lots of ordinary defensive shooters have the exact same thinking.
Just a little bit too much Spray & Pray "tucked away" in there & a bit too much stock placed in the ability to just keep throwing lots & lots of lead in the general direction of the threat/problem.
And a bit more time needs to be clocked in on effecting fast reloads.
His confidence level in himself and his ability to protect himself is not quite "up there" where it should be. Just my opinion.

The thought of defensive shooters or LEOs laying down a blanket of Cover Fire in my community is not a good thought for me.
 

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Oregonshooter . . . you apparently aren't familiar with NYC! There isn't 5' between buildings. Buildings are usually wooden structures. One 9mm round could easily make it thru 3 or 4 apartments!

Everyone has to be responsible for every round legally and civilly, although LEOs may get more slack in criminal prosecution, they take it in the chops for any innocent victims at the civil lawsuit!

Cover fire is totally inappropriate in such a crowded city! This mentality is definitely "spray and pray" and nothing else.

All shots should only be taken when you can clearly aim at the BG and have a good chance at hitting him. Good training (Jim Crews, Randy Cain and Gabe Suarez) has taught us that recoil is really not an issue if you learn how to hold the gun properly and perform the proper follow-thru after the shot.

Drugged up people (NYC is a haven for this) can easily take 6-9 CM shots with 9mm and not go down . . . this is well documented in LE shootings. The .45 is a better solution for these folks and one can learn to reload VERY quickly. I think it was Jim Crews who first taught me that "you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight"!

There is a lot of evidence that the OP has watched too many Western shoot-em-ups to get his opinions of what/how a police shooting should go.

When I was working for the PD, dispatch and other cruisers all knew where I had stopped and when. If it was potentially dicey (almost everything in NYC qualifies), backup was sent when possible. We wouldn't have relied on someone hearing WWIII calling 911 for the dispatchers to send backup. Radios were used to call in the troops if the situation looked bad. Assuming the OP works in an area where radio reception works, that is the preferred way to call for help, not throwing bullets thru the walls of nearby apartments!
 

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Every location is unique, but before you throw the baby out with the bath-water, consider the following scenario.

Hiking in woods of Oregon you stumble onto a "grow" and are met by the local tender who is packing an AR15. You are in the open and the nearest tree is 30yrds away.

That guy is going to get one hell of a rain of bullets while I beat feat to the cover. You want to run and not lay down something for him to think about, then go ahead.

In NY the situation is obviously different. I'm just saying... Never say never, and don't get too far up on the high horse over a tactic that has it's place.

So using that tactic and that scenario, do you want to change mags on the way to cover because you have 7+1 or keep shooting your 17+1 9mm?

There are a lot more I could illustrate and like I said, a few training sessions in FoF would really drive the point home. People think because they can shoot a stationary cardboard target fast that they know what will be needed in a gun fight.

Unless you have done FoF and tested the "reality" of dynamic shooting, I think you are doing yourself a great disservice and your tactics are going to be tainted by it.

No mag change is fast enough people!

LenS,
His hail of bullets being more of a calvary call than one or two is complete BS, and I don't agree with it at all.
 

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Oregonshooter,

I take it most of your response was not aimed at my reply.

Is the guy walking in the Oregon woods LE or civilian?

- If LE, he should be carrying HIS AR15! I don't want to tangle with a bear with just my 9mm handgun.

- If civilian, I don't know as I'm not familiar with your laws. If an AR15 (same reason as above) carry is acceptable there, that's what I'd be doing with my 1911 as a backup.

I'll never say never to cover fire, but the background has to dictate that it is safe to do. NYC is packed with buildings like the stocked cereal shelf in a grocery store and you just can't get away with cover fire without serious risk to hitting an innocent in another apartment.
 

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And, to follow-up ORShooter's scenario: (real one)

PD pulls over suspects in a routine stop. Perp 1 emerges, firing, taking the passenger-side, exiting, officer down. The PD driver sees his partner fall, and exits, firing (S&W 5906- 15 rounds). Total range is +/- 15 yds. The officer empties, reloads, empties again, before the perp is "down". 13 hits for 30 expended. Perp 2 ran away.

I don't know about you, but volume had it's own quality. Running around two vehicles, ducking and bobbing, with the BG showing no inclination to disengage, I'd be pretty damn happy with a 50% hit ratio. I just bought two single-stack 9mm's, that I plan to start carrying, but I believe the BHP will see more travel in the "late hours and obscure places"....
 

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The original text indicates that this person is a cop in NYC, so it must definitely be assumed that there are always no-shoots downrange. Some of his justifications seem to be based on an attitude that would apply in the Oregon scenario, but which I, as a civilian who works in NYC, find rather frightening. What would, in Oregon, be considered suppressive fire or cover fire or whatever, in NYC definitely becomes "spray 'n' pray".

Having said that, he is absolutely right - the more bullets you can carry in one package the better. The ideal handgun would be belt fed through some kind of flexible chute that, perhaps, would wrap around the shooter's waist like a belt and then go to the gun.

However, we've got to deal with practical weapons (ie, i'm sure someone could produce a belt fed 1911 or whatever, but it wouldn't look like the gun it was based upon). So we have several choices. Smaller cal with more rounds in either single or double stack magazine, extended magazine, larger cal double stack.

Extending the mag just a little to pick up an extra round or two to reach the old politically correct 10 rounds is OK; it doesn't overly distort the gun/mag combination. 15 rounds in an extended single stack 45 is rediculous. Going to single stack in smaller cal to pick up an extra 3 or 4 rounds is ok if we aren't giving up too much in the way of "stopping power" which is a whold 'nuther can of worms, but is a consideration.

Double stacks are great if your hand is big enough. Mine isn't. Between the fat grip and the far forward trigger on a glock, I'm pushing the trigger to the left more than pulling it straight back. As far as going to a Para double stack 1911 in 45, well, that's just not an option for me.

As far as recoil control is concerned, yes, with the proper techniques, the 1911 in 45ACP is quite controlable. But if you apply those same techniques to a 1911 in 9mm, I expect that it would be far easier to control. Personally, I found the HK P7 a sweet gun to shoot, but don't know how it would be as a double stack.

So everything becomes a trade-off in some manner. Lotsa bullets would be great. Little or no recoil would be great. Mini-nulcear warheads in each round would be great. Now, compromize each of these areas to some degree to come up with a realistic pistol for the situation.

Personally, at home I have a 1911 with a 10 round McCormic mag in the gun and a 4 mag pouch with 4 more 10 rounders in it (but I can't close the flap on it because the mags are too big). My intent is, when I get out of this People's Republic and can carry, to carry that same gun with 2 of the mags in a pouch that holds them vertically and then have the other two in some kind off pouches that hold them parallel to my belt in SOB location. Or I may find that I'll just get a 38spl 2inch revolver and a speed strip.

However, some of his attitudes are not appropriate for a cop in NYC.
 
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