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Friends,

First, I want to thank all of you who gave such thoughtful responses. I read them all. I would have responded in the other thread but someone closed it off. I work all day and writing here berofre evening isn't an option.

First, as I said in the original post, I was repeating the input of others. I was leaning to what I had heard, but now remember the Bible Proverb, "The first to speak seems right, until another comes forward and questions him"

Many of your posts and the points made were very valid and much appreciated. From what you have all said, I am fully persuaded that shouting PO-LICE is a bad idea, if for no other reason than the one post which pointed out that the chances of being shot by another good guy do seem to be extremely low. More on that in a moment. Working on base as I do, we are not allowed to carry and I don't break the rules. I have done the math and I am far more likely to get busted and loose my career than to be shot by a bad guy on base. So odds to matter and they should effect our decisions.

With that said, on base we do Active Shooter exercises on a regular bases, because they have happened and the threat exists. But the threat is very low. So it seems that while in general a CCW badge is a bad idea because of the possible down sides and the odds, there may be applications for it that do not involve an underdeveloped ego and that might be helpful. I don't know, I am going to have to give this more thought and look at the laws of the state I am living in at the time. I know when I retire in Alabama (Amen), everyone there is a good guy so it won't be an issue... :)

As a chaplain I have ministered to a number of my patients who have suffered gunshot wounds, some have died as a result of their wounds and as I said before, some shot by mistake by our own guys. With mass shootings here in the states etc, it just seems that many of the posts here are true as far as they go, and surely play the odds, but may also be one dimensional in not taking a broader view of the potentialities. As I listen to the wounded share their stories with me as the chaplain, these stories very often including the recounting of much yelling that takes place during the battle. One story recounted was about a US military police training team who got in a gun fight in low light conditions on the street with the Iraqi police they were training because they could not see clearly and neglected to yell prior to shooting. It might surprise many of you, but prior to deployment, we all (including the chaplains who don't carry guns but still have the right to self defense) receive training on what to do to avert a threat, things like yelling commands, and shooting the "vital tee" etc.

I ask these questions about the badge because I first read the other threads on this and found 0remarkably little thought that went into them). Your responses, most of them anyway are much more thougth provoking.

In closing, I am considering the shooting in Arizona with the Congresswoman. What if an armed CCW holder responded? What if three were on the scene. When I have been shot at I found myself immediately disoriented. The yelling the pointing, all help to make sense of the situation. We had uniforms, what do civilian good guys have? So if there were two good guys on a scene of evil, would it be the right thing to do to run when we could stop a slaughter just because we could get away safely ourselves? Sounds like a chaplain question doesn't it? Unlikely, I suppose, but what if? I don't have all the answers and I am not an authority, but I am seeking an education. You all have been helpful and I want to thank you again for responding.
 

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... First, as I said in the original post, I was repeating the input of others. I was leaning to what I had heard, but now remember the Bible Proverb, "The first to speak seems right, until another comes forward and questions him" ...
I always heard that as "The first liar never wins."

I'm pretty sure you will get the same responses this time that you got in your last post on this subject, and that is that the general opinion on this forum is that CC badges are a bad idea, for more reasons than I could possibly state.

We see this question come up periodically and no matter what the OP's intentions are, they have always devolved into ugly discussions, and usually a lot of name-calling.
 

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Last eveing I believe in the Pittsburgh area......guy walks into a Target Store with a large knife and starts stabbing people randomly.....6 people I believe including a little girl....and no PA. CCL Holders......unreal.
 

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depinho - welcome to the board and nice to see it was indeed a thoughtful post and not a "drive by posting" (still laughing at that one). I didn't thank you before with my rather sarcastic post, and should apologize for posting when sleep deprived. Also, thank you for your service, your calling is a tough one. Having done the ER and ICU thing, I also have seen many patients die, but the vast majority of the patients that died on my watch were caused by their own stupidity, there were some were innocents or bystanders lost, however a chaplain serving those that have sacrificed their life for us, for American citizens, is something I want to thank you for personally.

You asked:
What if an armed CCW holder responded? What if three were on the scene. When I have been shot at I found myself immediately disoriented. The yelling the pointing, all help to make sense of the situation. We had uniforms, what do civilian good guys have? So if there were two good guys on a scene of evil, would it be the right thing to do to run when we could stop a slaughter just because we could get away safely ourselves? Sounds like a chaplain question doesn't it?
This is a tough question, and we can "what if's" all day long, but I think this is a valid "what if". Remember that most civilian shootings such as this only takes seconds. By the time the pointing starts, the shooting is most often already over with. Not always, but the vast majority of the time. For an untrained individual situations such as you describe causes tunnel vision, and uniforms are most often not even recognized during the first moments of tunnel vision. Such as soldiers, preventing the tunnel vision requires training, and constant situational awareness. I can't predict how I would respond in every situation, but for the most part, I have decided that my job is to protect myself and my family. Not to protect every other citizen on the street.

If (as you suggest) a CCW holder does respond, as soon as the threat is over, be prepared to be treated like a suspect until cleared. Expect to be handcuffed, put to the ground, etc. They will sort it out eventually. Because of this, you need to make sure that you pose no threat that requires additional force. This means making the gun safe, and obeying all instructions from appropriate law enforcement. A CCW badge will do nothing to help you, other than make you even more of a suspect. Remember also that the CCW badge can be purchased by anyone, no background check, no actual CCW license required.

Use your weapon to save your life, and once used be glad your alive, and put your hands in the air, or lay on the ground and follow the instructions given by law enforcement without hesitation, and have a get a lawyer before you say anything.
 

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Last eveing I believe in the Pittsburgh area......guy walks into a Target Store with a large knife and starts stabbing people randomly.....6 people I believe including a little girl....and no PA. CCL Holders......unreal.
There are not a lot of CHL/CCP holders out there that actually carry everyday. That accounts for the lack of CC'er involvement in many of these incidents. If there are CC'ers there with their EDC they might be
1-with family and getting them out of danger
2-beleive that they carry for themselves only and they are getting out of dodge so they don't get hurt
3-a sub-group of #2 who just do not want to get involved..period
4-beleive it or not, many folks that CC are not up to the task of processing an active attacker and either freeze or ar plain afraid of making the wrong decision
5- a sub-group of #4 who just are plain afraid of the legal aspect of using their EDC

Yeah, I can easily beleive that folks with a CCP/CHL might have been there and did not act for the reasons stated above.
 

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In closing, I am considering the shooting in Arizona with the Congresswoman. What if an armed CCW holder responded? What if three were on the scene. When I have been shot at I found myself immediately disoriented. The yelling the pointing, all help to make sense of the situation. We had uniforms, what do civilian good guys have? So if there were two good guys on a scene of evil, would it be the right thing to do to run when we could stop a slaughter just because we could get away safely ourselves? Sounds like a chaplain question doesn't it? Unlikely, I suppose, but what if? I don't have all the answers and I am not an authority, but I am seeking an education. You all have been helpful and I want to thank you again for responding.
Interesting you reference the Arizona shooting. It came up in my CCW course a while back. Our instructor (former LEO) said that there were actually at least two CCW on scene. The first one recognized that there were too many innocents and didn't pull his gun. Instead, he tackled the shooter. The second one saw a guy with a gun and pulled on him. He was just about the pull the trigger when he stopped, realizing he didn't have a full grasp of the situation. As it turns out, the guy in his targets was the first CCW holder who had taken the gun away from the shooter. From my understanding, my CCW trainer got this information from the reports when they were all interviewed.

If you think about that scenario, a little badge isn't going to do anything when you're wrestling on the ground or just getting up. There's too much happening. Too much screaming and yelling as well. That's why I think we all need to repeatedly remind ourselves that carrying a gun does NOT make us LEOs, nor should we act like LEOs. (Let me amend that, if I'm caught in the middle of a bad situation, I will do what's right to save innocent life, but that is not necessarily the same thing a LEO might do).
 
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Just walking through the store stabbing people and I believe I read where the little girl was stabbed 4 times.......
It is a cruel world. Wife and I came upon a jeep that flipped over. Man was thrown in the middle of the road, lady was almost upside down straped in. Folks were DRIVING around the guy in the middle of the road without stopping! Wife checked on the girl and then stood in the middle of the road until someoone else stopped.
 
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It is a cruel world. Wife and I came upon a jeep that flipped over. Man was thrown in the middle of the road, lady was almost upside down straped in. Folks were DRIVING around the guy in the middle of the road without stopping! Wife checked on the girl and then stood in the middle of the road until someoone else stopped.
It is a cruel world and I couldn't sleep at night knowing I drove around someone laying in the middle of the road. Truly a sad thing.
 

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The second one saw a guy with a gun and pulled on him. He was just about the pull the trigger when he stopped, realizing he didn't have a full grasp of the situation. As it turns out, the guy in his targets was the first CCW holder who had taken the gun away from the shooter.
The key is that the this second CCW holder DID NOT SHOT, he assessed the situation, recognized a grave threat, pulled his gun while continuing to assess, as soon as he recognized the issue, he did not continue. The anti's talk about this "He almost shot an innocent"... I say hogwash, he didn't, he assessed and reassessed. He did not get the tunnel vision and was able to control his instincts. I think we should give Kudo's to both men! When looking at this, both men were to busy to be worried about pulling out their shinny tin badges. Both were good guys, and recognized each other as such.
 

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It is a cruel world. Wife and I came upon a jeep that flipped over. Man was thrown in the middle of the road, lady was almost upside down straped in. Folks were DRIVING around the guy in the middle of the road without stopping! Wife checked on the girl and then stood in the middle of the road until someoone else stopped.
I came on a similar, but not as serious scene a couple of years ago. It was a car in a ditch on the side of a very steep mountain road. I was with my family and as I came on the wreck I saw 2 college age girls crying for help in the car. I immediately stopped, approached the car and checked to make sure there was no smoke, leaking fuel I could see, etc. The girls were pinned in the car by the steep cliff on one side and the ditch wall on the other. One was starting to hyperventilate and she looked like she might be going into shock. I must admit that I thought for a moment about liability, but then thought about my own daughter who is about the same age; I certainly would want a someone to help her under similar circumstances.

I told my wife to call 911, I climbed on top of the car and after having them confirm that they didn't have broken bones or other serious injuries, I found a way to gently lift them out through one of the windows. To make a long story short(er) we got the girl who was hyperventilating into our car, wrapped her in a blanket and got her to warm up and calm down. The other girl who was driving ended up with a concussion. It took the first responder over 30 minutes to arrive. We did have several people stop and offer to help while we waited, although more just drove bye.

A couple of days after the accident the driver called me and thanked us for stopping and helping them. She didn't realize at the time how serious the accident had been.

I understand all of the liability and other issues, but I just don't have it in me to be the one who drives by.
 

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Last eveing I believe in the Pittsburgh area......guy walks into a Target Store with a large knife and starts stabbing people randomly.....6 people I believe including a little girl....and no PA. CCL Holders......unreal.

That happened in a fairly large TARGET Store in East Liberty. The building used to be SEARS East Liberty but, SEARS closed because they were being shoplifted out of business in that location.

There was a security guard in there/ unarmed of course. :dead:

I used to work in East Liberty. It was a slime-bucket area back then and it's worse now even though it went through an attempted revitalization.

The 16 year old girl is from Tennessee. Absolutely beautiful little girl. She was standing in the check-out line and was grabbed as an attempted hostage by the perp. The nut job threatened to stab her if anyone approached. They did and he did.
She was slashed on the arm and stabbed twice in the back by the whack-job that was armed with a large butcher/kitchen type knife.
One stab wound penetrated deeply enough to puncture a lung from the rear. She was taken to CHILDRENS Hospital initially in Critical condition.
However she has made a remarkable recovery (now in stable condition) and is now texting and Tweeting her friends from her hospital bed.
They grow those kids TOUGH in Tennessee. :yup:

The perp was a homeless nut job. He really is decently crazy. He was first running down the street ranting crazy talk and slashed some completely innocent passerby in the face.

He then ran into TARGET (followed by some people who witnessed the slashing on the sidewalk outside) and that is when he grabbed the young female.

Details are somewhat sketchy as to what exact events transpired inside.
One individual inside was cut badly on a finger. One Officer was accidentally sprayed with OC Spray.

Most of the customers inside TARGET ran to the back of the store and were let out of an Emergency Door by a female employee. A select few stayed up front and attempted to take the perp down.

They did eventually overwhelm him and rumor has it that they beat the living tar out of him once they got him to the ground.

Also commonly called an Administration Of Street Justice.

The perp had a prior warrant out for his arrest. He is jailed now with an extremely high dollar amount required before he can hear the birdies chirping outdoors.

So...in response to the statement in the above post. It sure does seem like nobody in the store was armed at the time.

That is all I know at this point in time.
 

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There ya go...............innocent people going about their own business and attacked.......and no armed security, no CCL holders.....and that's it.
 

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You're in a military environment. Much like the police, the military is trained to attack. You see things in an offensive manner. Concealed carry is not offensive. It is for self defense. I have no problem admitting that the best way to survive a gun fight is not go to one. That's the big difference between between how I perceive my responsibility as a cc permit holder and how you are looking at things. good luck
 

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Depinho: WELCOME to the forum!!! Stick around--its great to have you here!!!!
 

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Last eveing I believe in the Pittsburgh area......guy walks into a Target Store with a large knife and starts stabbing people randomly.....6 people I believe including a little girl....and no PA. CCL Holders......unreal.
A nearly identical situation happened here in Salt Lake City area in front of a grocery store only he was stopped after stabbing a couple people by a CCW holder who disarmed him and put him on the ground until the police came.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Replying to the post two above, I think you are right, I do tend to see things through a sheep dog paradigm. :) Gotta protect the sheep from the wolves, starting with the teaching the family not to be sheep. Both children were NRA life members by age ten. The only thing required for evil to win is for good men to do nothing.
 

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First, I want to thank all of you who gave such thoughtful responses.

many of the posts here are true as far as they go, and surely play the odds, but may also be one dimensional in not taking a broader view of the potentialities.

I ask these questions about the badge because I first read the other threads on this and found 0remarkably little thought that went into them). Your responses, most of them anyway are much more thougth provoking.
Welcome depinho...

It elicits a certain response to the subject of your first post which I'm sure you are now aware of; stirring the pot so to speak...

As to the subject of what's quoted above...

While some (most) of the responses to your thread seemed curt, just realize that this is an issue that has been beaten to death on this forum and many others like it; so much so that many resort to a short and seemingly rude response because of the past discussions on the issue...

So please take no personal offense to the responses you received from many of the members here, myself included...

This forum is the best on the 'net to research and discuss all matters pertaining to self-defense that I have found...

I truly hope that you, and others like you, are not turned off by the "ducks jumping on the bug" ...

Thanx for your service...

:hand15:
 

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I am considering the shooting in Arizona with the Congresswoman. What if an armed CCW holder responded? What if three were on the scene. When I have been shot at I found myself immediately disoriented. The yelling the pointing, all help to make sense of the situation. We had uniforms, what do civilian good guys have? So if there were two good guys on a scene of evil, would it be the right thing to do to run when we could stop a slaughter just because we could get away safely ourselves? Sounds like a chaplain question doesn't it? Unlikely, I suppose, but what if? I don't have all the answers and I am not an authority, but I am seeking an education. You all have been helpful and I want to thank you again for responding.
I have struggled with this idea myself. As a husband and father, my first obligation is to keep them safe and alive. Second is keeping myself safe and alive. Everyone else falls into place after that. My kids will not understand and will suffer if I die trying to save a total stranger. That said, if I found myself in an unfortunate shooting like what you described and had a clear shot, yes I'd take it. If not, I'd flee. The way I see it, I'm not a sworn officer. My concealed pistol does not give me any authority. It's presence only increasing the odds of my survival should evil find its way into my life.
 

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It still sounds like you are working on the assumption that as CHCL holders we are signing up as protectors of innocent civilians. I did not. If there is an active shooter environment my first and only priority is to move myself and my family out of harms way not present myself as a target by producing a badge. If the need to fire arises I will not be announcing my intentions I will draw and shoot to kill. Even if the circumstances are such that I could intercede and stop the event I will not try to do it by announcing I am carrying. They will know when bullets begin striking their body. CHCL holders are not trained to be LEO's and have no rights or responsibilities as such. Just the liability implications are to many to be contemplated. If you want to carry a badge go to LEO training and sign up to the police force. I do not want any wanna be cops anywhere near me. Oh and to make the deterrent to continue point invalid criminals shoot cops in uniform too. I don't think a die cast, shiny, irrelevant piece of metal will be any type of deterrent to someone willing to kill.
 
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