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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This question occurred to me last night and I remembered just now to post it. Has anyone ever heard of a SD situation where a CC defender wound up being outgunned by the BG because the GG's gun was too small?
 

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Remember fight is in the heart not in the gun. Bad guy in most cases are looking for a FAST EASY way to get what is your (money, rape. or life) You are fighting to protect yourself and love ones and if you fail they may all go down to the BG. Your motivation is therefore much stronger than the BG. Gun size is important but not near as important as the courage and willingness to fight.
 

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Most bad guys want an easy out. If presented with a fight for a measly $50 they might just book it out of there instead of facing the prospect of trying to dodge a bullet. This won't always be the case, but sometimes it happens this way. They're as afraid of being shot as anyone. There are indeed some real nuts out there who don't care or think they're invincible though, so always be prepared for that.
 

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This question occurred to me last night and I remembered just now to post it. Has anyone ever heard of a SD situation where a CC defender wound up being outgunned by the BG because the GG's gun was too small?
LEOs make reference to this frequently.

The 1986 Miami FBI Shootout was a case-in-point for bullet size and penetration.
 

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LEOs make reference to this frequently.

The 1986 Miami FBI Shootout was a case-in-point for bullet size and penetration.
I've also read a real story of a 44MAG round that was fired at the head of a man and did not penetrate the skull, but skirted around it. I don't know the angle of the shot in question though.
 

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only if you mean 'not enough ammo' :wave:

I remember when I was working in Central America hearing about a gentleman who went through all three magazines he had for his Browning High-Power defending himself from multiple attackers armed with AK's and pistols...

last I heard he was still alive (witnesses said he put 6 or 7 gunmen to flight)

.22 has probably ended more lives... :confused:
 

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This question occurred to me last night and I remembered just now to post it. Has anyone ever heard of a SD situation where a CC defender wound up being outgunned by the BG because the GG's gun was too small?
News reports are never very detailed , but occasionally the good guy loses th
gunfight:frown:

Lots of stories where the Bad Guy survives getting shot multiple times though :icon_neutral: one reason I don't own a mouse gun........
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Since posting this question this afternoon a guy I've been talking to at work gave me two back issues of Concealed Carry Magazine and the August/September 2008 issue told about a guy who shot an intruder 8 times, and it wasn't until the 8th shot broke the intruder's leg that the guy went down. And even then the intruder was trying to get a new magazine out for his glock because a bullet had hit the glock and caused it to drop the magazine. That was with a 9mm Springfield XD with Federal Hydrashock rounds.
 

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Adrienne adds a lot to a fight. There is no for sure one shot stopper. Bullet placement and willingness to fight are the keys to winning. You may win the fight and still loss your life, but I would rather go down fighting than just go down at the whim of BG.
 

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-"That was with a 9mm Springfield XD with Federal Hydrashock rounds."

Yeah, thats why I dont carry anything smaller than a 40sw,
those little 9 sissymeters just dont have the stopping power. Ive been looking to up the ante to a 45acp but I dont want to give up the mag capacity. So far Im considering the XD45 which has a 12 rd mag (i think).

Any one can be outgunned, its just how you handle the situation and how good you are with your weapon thats gonna determine how you get out. When in doubt, run.
 

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-"That was with a 9mm Springfield XD with Federal Hydrashock rounds."

Yeah, thats why I dont carry anything smaller than a 40sw,
those little 9 sissymeters just dont have the stopping power. Ive been looking to up the ante to a 45acp but I dont want to give up the mag capacity. So far Im considering the XD45 which has a 12 rd mag (i think).

Any one can be outgunned, its just how you handle the situation and how good you are with your weapon thats gonna determine how you get out. When in doubt, run.
9mm has plenty of stops in a defense situation. The joke around here is "let me shoot you with my ***** 9 and see if it does the job"

The idea is to shoot to stop not to kill. Also, someone on PCP won't go down easy even with a .45acp round. You gotta hit the COM and get vitals. The ammo may also be in question. Hydrashock is old and well known to clog up with clothing material and act like a FMJ with little or no expansion. Good rounds won't do this and will get the job donw if you do your part.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE .45acp. It's a classic round, especially from a 1911. However, I also love my Glock 19 which is my EDC and would trust my life to it without question because I am confident in my skills to hit the target if it becomes necessary.
 

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No, I have not heard of a such a situation.
If you're not a cop, you are less likely to be is such a situation.

Stay armed...remember: situational awareness, and shot placement (not caliber)...stay safe!
 

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Stay armed...remember: situational awareness, and shot placement (not caliber)...stay safe!
Couldn't have said it better. :hand10:

Training is in order to learn the above key elements in a bad situation.
 

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Since posting this question this afternoon a guy I've been talking to at work gave me two back issues of Concealed Carry Magazine and the August/September 2008 issue told about a guy who shot an intruder 8 times, and it wasn't until the 8th shot broke the intruder's leg that the guy went down. And even then the intruder was trying to get a new magazine out for his glock because a bullet had hit the glock and caused it to drop the magazine. That was with a 9mm Springfield XD with Federal Hydrashock rounds.
That was one of our members,he posted the story here...somewhere...
He had a drunk(girlfriends ex) break in his house.
He hit the guy everywhere but COM his last round hit him in the pelvis I think. He was new to guns and only had his pistol a very short period. Shot placement was the problem in that situation,as it is in most.

...or shot placement was perfect, as his attacker was running at him with his gun going click,click,click!
 

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I recall hearing about that item in the news. ^^

The first one to come to my mind though that is strictly civilian victim was the as noted and infamous Texas courthouse shootout victim.
Mark Allen Wilson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Very many lessons to learn from that incident and his specific actions.

The second to come to mind was the Tacoma Mall shooting event with Brandon McKown...
Tacoma Mall shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tacoma Mall Shooting Victim May Never Walk Again | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | News Archive

McKown engaged a BG with a gun that was mechanically non-functional, though he did not know this because he hadn't thought to go to the range muchless train. Also he attempted to talk the shooter down by appealing to him with an authoritative voice. Fail.
Again several lessons to learn from that event as well.

There are others but these come to mind first.

- Janq
 

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During our Academy, we were shown the video of a traffic stop. It was the Trooper Coates traffic stop. Trooper Coates was armed with a .357 magnum, and the suspect was armed with a .22 cal pistol. Trooper Coates scored multiple hits on the suspect, while the suspect shot at Trooper Coates. Coates was hit in the armpit where his vest did not have coverage, and the bullet hit his aorta, causing Coates to bleed out and die. The suspect survived despite multiple hits.
 

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In the Tyler Texas case the BG was waring body armor and the hand gun fired by Mr. Wilson was not effective again the armor, not many handguns are effective against this type of armor. I have been told that if you up against body armor your best hope is to shoot at the very high center chest about where the armor come up to the neck in a effort to penetrate the neck and maybe the face area. Truly a case for shot placement done in a real hurry.
 

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As a civilian CCL holder, unlike an LEO who has to respond to calls of help, we are not trying to put ourselves in harm’s way. Therefore our biggest leveler is the element of surprise.

The idea is the BG knows your armed a millisecond before the first round strikes his chest. Unless he’s warring body armor, his zeal for coming a crime just ended, and that’s before the second round strikes, com or the third strikes his head.

BG’s on drugs changes everything. Regardless of what caliber you’re shooting unless you strike a vital artery, and he bleeds out, the BG is going to continue to try to cause you harm.

I recall back in the 90’s reading about Jacksonville, Florida deputy’s trying to stop a guy with a knife. BG attacked them, and in defense the officers shot the BG numerous times with officer using the new 10mm’s, and he just kept coming at them.
 
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