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Since I started carrying, I've only carried a gun...never a less than lethal option. But the Z trial and now this one with the agent in Hawaii have me very very concerned. What's the point of carrying a gun if you're afraid to use it due to legal ramifications? Z got acquitted, but it took 1.5 years of his life away and now he'll have to hide forever. I mean, is that really living? I've seen other threads on here where the shooter defended themselves 100% legally and still had to move because of threats made to them and their family. And that's with a justified shooting. A shooting that is questionable at all, like Z's, basically will ruin your life. So, I'm thinking of either adding OC spray to my carry gun....or replacing my carry gun with OC. OC is almost 100% effective from what I've heard and it'll give u time to flee/get help.

Thoughts?
 

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I always have Pepper Spray along with Two Snubs, Flashlight, small Knife, extra Ammo, Phone, Wallet, Money Clip, extra Batteries for the Flashlight, Earplugs, and my Keys. No matter what the Weather. The Pepper Spray saved my But when a big Boxer mix Dog thought I didn't belong on the Sidewalk. He was wrong and he lost. If Zimmerman had tried Pepper Spray first, the outcome may have been a little better for both of them.
 

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It's a good option but I wouldn't trust my life with it. There are people out there that it just doesn't faze, druggies and the like. Also what if you are in windy conditions and you get it right back. It has also been shown that an assailant can keep on coming after he's been sprayed and do some damage. I'm not telling you not to carry it, but I'd get the best they have and back it up with a gun.
 

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A gun also works great for a threat without pulling the trigger and draining your life savings and ruining your life. This is a worthwhile discussion. There's a lot of talk on this forum about tactics and how to survive an encounter with an assailant. There needs to be more talk about about surviving the attack and staying out of prison afterwards. I really wonder if Zimmerman was wishing there was no round in that chamber at this point. If there wasn't, he might have just drawn in and stuck it in T's ribs and said get off. Or maybe he might have just taking a more serious beating and gone back to life as he knew it.

As it is, he isn't out of the woods yet. DOJ is now investigating Z for a civil rights trial for civil rights violation/hate crime. And then there's the civil trial with the family. But hey, he's alive right? No thanks, I'd rather be dead. I'd rather play the bluff with Treyvon of drawing a gun to deescalate the situation then pull that trigger. There are so many variables. My god, there's a woman in Florida that just got 20 years for firing a gun in her home. No one was injured.
 

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Speaking from the standpoint of a retire LEO, any spray OC or OC/CS is not 100% effective. I have sprayed numerous people and each reacted differently. Some even did not react whatsoever....it had no effect. All told I have probably sprayed somewhere in the area of 40+ people in real life situations. Replacing a CC Sidearm with OC is not a viable choice. Supplementing your CCW with OC is however a fairly reasonable choice that gives you a less than lethal option.
 

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Since I started carrying, I've only carried a gun...never a less than lethal option. But the Z trial and now this one with the agent in Hawaii have me very very concerned. What's the point of carrying a gun if you're afraid to use it due to legal ramifications? Z got acquitted, but it took 1.5 years of his life away and now he'll have to hide forever. I mean, is that really living? I've seen other threads on here where the shooter defended themselves 100% legally and still had to move because of threats made to them and their family. And that's with a justified shooting. A shooting that is questionable at all, like Z's, basically will ruin your life. So, I'm thinking of either adding OC spray to my carry gun....or replacing my carry gun with OC. OC is almost 100% effective from what I've heard and it'll give u time to flee/get help.

Thoughts?
My less-than-lethal option is my fist.
 

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Since I started carrying, I've only carried a gun...never a less than lethal option. But the Z trial and now this one with the agent in Hawaii have me very very concerned. What's the point of carrying a gun if you're afraid to use it due to legal ramifications? Z got acquitted, but it took 1.5 years of his life away and now he'll have to hide forever. I mean, is that really living? I've seen other threads on here where the shooter defended themselves 100% legally and still had to move because of threats made to them and their family. And that's with a justified shooting. A shooting that is questionable at all, like Z's, basically will ruin your life. So, I'm thinking of either adding OC spray to my carry gun....or replacing my carry gun with OC. OC is almost 100% effective from what I've heard and it'll give u time to flee/get help.

Thoughts?
My best friend was murdered because he deployed his pepper spray instead of his gun, so I will admit to a bias and leave it that.
 

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What's the point of carrying a gun if you're afraid to use it due to legal ramifications? Z got acquitted, but ...
You're right. If you are going to look at any engagement with the use of lethal force as being so risk as to not want that under any circumstances, then by all means seek other means of self-defense.

Trouble is, that's toying with the ultimate game of rock/paper/scissors. You'll need to evaluate the various scenarios (in terms of what the BG [or BG's] happens to be armed with). Not all tools or defensive tactics are going to prevail against all of a BG's available choices. There's the rub.


OC is almost 100% effective from what I've heard and it'll give u time to flee/get help.
In many of the crime schools (aka prisons) and elsewhere, the word is many felons are taught how to work through the discomfort of sprays. Your average cretin might well not be capable of remaining effective if sprayed, sure, but you're playing with your very life if you are willing to bet on 100% effectiveness. And, even if you do happen to get the spray unleashed, it's entirely possible the violent felon facing you is armed in some other manner; no guarantees it still won't be used against you, even after the spraying.

Sprays have their place. They're just not going to trump many of the tools out there, including the whole class of deadly weaponry that can be brought against you.

Worth considering.

That said, though, you've got a good point. The ramifications of any self-defense situation can be ugly, even dire. If we get it wrong, it can impact the remainder of our lives. But it needn't do so. Many, many people each year get through SD situations and survive the ramifications. You'll need to evaluate the pros/cons as to whether it's worth it to you. Everyone's different, in that regard.

If you haven't already done so, pick up a copy of Ayoob's book, In The Gravest Extreme. It goes through most of these questions in some fair detail, to help folks appreciate it's often not all peaches and cream to "survive" while defending ourselves.
 

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Size does matter. We all carry enough gear already. I did not want to add another item to my "Batbelt" and my pockets are already full of day to day stuff.

I like the small key chain units that fit easily in a pocket. True, they don't have a great capacity but they are cheap enough that you can afford to replace them if you ever have to use one.

Have it in your hand crossing a parking lot or if an "unsavory" sort approaches you at a gas station ect...

If nothing else it can buy you some time to move and transition to another tool if necessary.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Size does matter. We all carry enough gear already. I did not want to add another item to my "Batbelt" and my pockets are already full of day to day stuff.

I like the small key chain units that fit easily in a pocket. True, they don't have a great capacity but they are cheap enough that you can afford to replace them if you ever have to use one.

Have it in your hand crossing a parking lot or if an "unsavory" sort approaches you at a gas station ect...

If nothing else it can buy you some time to move and transition to another tool if necessary.
That was my next question....what size and brand does everybody recommend?
 

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OC is not 100% effective. That said I carry a can of Fox Labs in addition to my sidearm. Not everyone who might accost you deserves to be shot, but that doesn't mean I want to engage in fisticuffs if it's avoidable.
 

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Well, I started carrying a gun after having a kid and realizing that a) I have the responsibility for this other person, and b) if I were ever pressed into a situation where my family was threatened severely and immediately, what tool(s) would make the most difference? I would contend that if someone tried to hijack my car at a gas station with my kid strapped in the back, oc spray, knife, etc aren't going to make much of a difference. What I realized is that while oc spray may give you time to get away, what about the situations where you just can't get away? This is a big deal for people with loved ones and families. But also a big deal for anyone. What happens if you are attacked by someone and their first blow cripples a leg? After you oc them, what's next if you can't run away?

Gun Facts - Gun Control | Facts | Debunk | Myths

There's a chart in there about stats on success of resisting an attack with various tools. The only tool that statistically reduces injury vs not resisting at all is a gun. But, you have to make your own decision.
 

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That was my next question....what size and brand does everybody recommend?
Go with a size youre comfortable carrying. Even smaller canisters can get off at least five shots. Fox Labs is considered one of the best brands and is what I carry. It would help when making youre choice, to learn the different spray patterns available but I am not very well versed in that information.
 

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In addition to, perhaps. Not in place of.

Though I don't truly fault Zimmerman, to a certain degree he's paying a price for a mistake. I don't believe he had bad intentions, but following Martin and calling 911 was ill-advised. If, instead, he'd just been jumped by Martin with no prior contact, then likely this would never have made headlines.

It's sad, but these days you have to keep your head down to stay alive. If you end up in the spotlight for a gun-related incident, you'll be portrayed as the devil.
 

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When I kit up, where I'm at and what is the current atmosphere in the area plays a part in what I carry. Rural Wyoming really isn't a hot bed of violent crimes so I generally go with a CCW piece, maybe a flashlight if out during the evening hours and expecting to be away from my vehicle and call it a day. However, when I was stationed in Florida, my load out changed. In addition to my CCW, I always carried a surefire light, Kubotan key chain and OC as well as the chances of an encounter were much greater then than they are for me today.
What this accomplished for me was having a layered approach to an escalation of force as the situation may dictate. Would the rowdy drunken bum walking down the street justify a bullet in the face because he was being a bit aggressive in his pan-handling tactics? Hell no! Shoot someone in a case like that and you are going to have a bad time in the courts. Here OC or a Kubotan may be all that is required to neutralize the threat and deescalate the situation. But now say I have my OC out and he pulls out a gun or if I am in a stop-n-rob and a thug comes in waving a gun demanding everybody on the ground. Now would I want to have only that can of OC on me? Uhm, no, me thinks I want my CCW with spare magazine ready to go when things are at this level!
When it comes to law enforcement, both civilian as well as military, we are introduced to the Use of Force Model
forcet.png
At the bottom levels of Professional Risk Perception categories, you may not need anything more than a firm voice. However, as you move up the pyramid, you can see that risk perceptions the individual may face increases. No, not quite to the level where deadly force may be justified but stronger measures than what a few stern words would accomplish. Finally, you get to the top levels and here is where things can be viewed as the threat of serious bodily harm or death may occur to your person. THIS is the level where a CCW would come into play but not really before. Keep in mind that things can escalate of deescalate VERY rapidly as well so while you may have your OC out at that threshold level, the other guy can quickly escalate it to that lethal level and you need to adapt to that new level and take the appropriate measures or he may quickly run away or become completely compliant taking you back to that Professional level.
In regards to less than lethal measures, none of them are guaranteed. OC can be blown back on you or the goblin may not be effected by it. Batons or other striking instruments as well as stun guns requires you to get in close to the bad guy degrading your reactionary gap. This also applies to hand-to-hand techniques in that you are required to put hands on the bad guy as well. Again, this degrades that reactionary gap as well. Both of these less than lethal options also require training and practice if you expect to achieve the desired results. Tasers are cool in that they are less than lethal and still maintains that stand off distance however, they are bulky in a CCW way and should one of the darts miss, you have a one-shot wonder that you will not have time to reload before the goblin is on top of you. So while, it sounds like there are a lot of negatives to less than lethal options (and there are) they still allow you to tailor your response to applying no more force than is necessary to neutralize the threat. Like I said, some instances may require the use of deadly force but many others won't so carrying a less than lethal option on you is never a bad idea either.
 

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I think OC is a good supplemental tool to have, but I wouldn't replace my gun with it.

Of course if your going to second guess carrying a gun, then perhaps not carrying is what you need to do. The seconds you spend deciding if you can use it may very well get you killed.
 
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In addition to, perhaps. Not in place of.

Though I don't truly fault Zimmerman, to a certain degree he's paying a price for a mistake. I don't believe he had bad intentions, but following Martin and calling 911 was ill-advised. If, instead, he'd just been jumped by Martin with no prior contact, then likely this would never have made headlines.

It's sad, but these days you have to keep your head down to stay alive. If you end up in the spotlight for a gun-related incident, you'll be portrayed as the devil.
It's sad that today people do not look out for the fellow man or woman. I would take all the GZ's with a small hero complex any day over someone that simply sits back and watches as the crime happens around them. Cops are not there to protect you and me and our families. That is our job. And until the majority of people wake up and realize this, the criminal will continue to win in the court of public opinion.
 

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...I always remember the young mother in FL a few years ago who sprayed a hijacker...and took two to the chest because of it...I just can't put my faith in sprays...

...there are uncertainties involved in self-defense...but successfully defending oneself with deadly force means you'll be here to deal with the aftermath...what if you weren't armed and didn't resist?
...I've told folks for years that I'm ready to meet Jesus Christ anytime He calls...but if He sends someone else, they'd BETTER bring a note!!! Life, with all it's problems, is worth fighting for...
My best friend was murdered because he deployed his pepper spray instead of his gun, so I will admit to a bias and leave it that.
 
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