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''In extremis'' - would you be aware of your round count? If I was using a revo I would know - it's an old old habit from years of compo, and occurs whether I like it or not. But a semi? Not so sure.

Let's say you DO carry a spare mag for your semi - would you ''keep count'' and do a tac' reload - or just go to slide-lock and then reload?? This may well, for obvious reasons, apply much more to the 1911 brigade!

I reckon for myself, if 15+1 ain't done the trick then probably I am in deep do-do anyways. I think tho I'd be going to slidelock on the SIG. That said, if there was a ''lull'' in ''problems'' I just very well might do a tac' to make sure I was still prepared.

Of course - same old - we'd probably never know until this occurred.!!!! I do practice reloads a lot tho - and that is one reason I enjoy my IDPA - it keeps me sharper.
 

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I can't say for sure, during a serious situation, but I think I would know. I have always counted subconciously for some reason, probably because of my anal-ness about trying to be aware of everything going on around me....
 

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I counter with this question: Would you have to?

I mean come on... what realistically is going to happen by the time you've emptied that gun? Surely you've either won or lost by then.

We get so caught up in capacity and "tactical reloads", etc. Chic Gaylord, Jack O'Connor, and J. Henry Fitzgerald never once penned advice on reloading in a gunfight, and I'd bet you a dollar they all used arms whose capacity was exactly six.

I've yet to see where Colonel Rex Applegate commented on how to quickly reload a handgun.

These guys all saw more real combat than I or 99% of all people period ever will, and none of them even touched on the subject.

As a matter of fact, I bet you can trace this whole idea of "tactical reloads" or counting rounds back to 1976, when suddenly your score was divided by your time.
 

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It's become second nature - I can usually tell both my count and that of the shooters around me as well. Friends look at me funny when I tell them to reload on the line without looking at their gun and they're still thinking there's one in the tube. :)
 

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I mean come on... what realistically is going to happen by the time you've emptied that gun? Surely you've either won or lost by then.
I can get off the entire magazine at multiple targets in less than four seconds. Like it or not, (and I don't), people don't suddenly die that fast. They may well be still shooting back, or have other friends I haven't noticed. I'm going to reload just in case.

We get so caught up in capacity and "tactical reloads", etc.
Capacity matters when you're in a situation that's not one on one, and matters a lot. I've faced four on one situations where I've been unable to retreat, and at that point, with any handgun alive, I'm not happy. With one with less than 10 rounds of ammunition, I'm probably going to get hurt and hurt badly because I can't deliver enough volume of fire to take down the people as fast as I'd like to.

Bad guys come in teams. I miss the days when you'd get a solitary mugger or armed robber.

Chic Gaylord,
The same man who thought that the 200gr .38 special was superior to the .357 in dropping opponents?

Jack O'Connor,
Against sheep and antelope and exotic game, they're not generally shooting back. I wouldn't call it combat either.

and J. Henry Fitzgerald never once penned advice on reloading in a gunfight,
Fitzgerald didn't forsee a lot of other advancements in shooting and ballistics that have occurred since 1930, either.

and I'd bet you a dollar they all used arms whose capacity was exactly six.
Two of three, perhaps. Sixguns aren't particularly useful against antelope infantry.

Times change, technology changes. Hell, there were people who swore (ala Jeff Cooper et al) that a reliably expanding JHP would never be developed from a handgun. Combat handgunning in many respects is still an art in its infancy. Until there are folks willing to step beyond the hokum of the 1950s and gun store wisdom, we won't get any changes for the better.

I've yet to see where Colonel Rex Applegate commented on how to quickly reload a handgun.
Chances are in Applegate's case he made the assumption that those taking his ideas forward were already familiar with the basics of operation, including reloading.

These guys all saw more real combat than I or 99% of all people period ever will, and none of them even touched on the subject.
As a civilian, I've seen more shootings than most ever will. I wouldn't want that experience to be one that became standard, but the truth is that it's a world of difference between being a policeman, police advisor, military guy, or gov't agent and between being Joe Average with a handgun for your own protection. I'm far more interested in what Joe Average has to say.

As a matter of fact, I bet you can trace this whole idea of "tactical reloads" or counting rounds back to 1976, when suddenly your score was divided by your time.
I've been shooting longer than I've been aware of combat shooting sports ala IDPA by many years, and counting shots since I began. When you've got a finite amount of shells, and a potentially infinite amount of targets, it's generally a good idea to at least know where you stand - especially when you don't have a reload.
 

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Count? No, know when I may be low? yeah if it's the same gun I usually carry. Don't worry about counting, worry about being the fastest to reload from slide lock.
 

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If carrying my P95 I have 16 in the weapon. I doubt I would ever get into anything where that wouldn't handle it, but I usually have a spare mag on me when I carry a bottom feeder. If I was engaged in something prolonged I would probably do a tac reload as that is how we train.
 

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round count is very useful. Best learn it and not need than the other way around.
 

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When I was in the military there was a trick we used to help us keep track of the ammo we had in out mags. We accepted the real fact that it was impossible to keep track of the round count in a magazine. It didn't matter weather you had 15 rounds in a mag or 30, keeping a running total in you head was impossible because you had to many other things to worry about. The best we could do was just keep a mental note of the condition of your mag. For example we think to ourselves, "do I have a full mag, half a mag or am I almost empty." If we thought "half a mag" or "almost empty" and there was a lull in the action then a reload with retention was what we did. It was easier to think of your mag condition in those terms than to frustrate yourself with counting.

Somthing that might be better than counting rounds is to count double taps, if you trained to do double taps that is. For example, a 1911 with 8 round mag and one it the chamber would be 4 double taps. It might be easier to keep track 4 double taps than to track 9 bullets when the stress monkey is on your back.
 

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Count

Yep, can count..but much rather concentrate on more important things..ie...staying alive.

Have carried multiple guns for the past 24 years...and one reload for each. Before that, one gun on person or in vehicle.

No gunfights, no shots fired, a very few presentations, fewer seen by confronter.
 

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.but much rather concentrate on more important things..ie...staying alive.
KC - quite agree on that which is of course our prime goal. The aspect I am exploring is whether if we count unconsciously, at least to some degree - we may be better able to achieve a more effective reload - as against relying on a sudden awareness of slidelock!

While it is (hopefully) not going to be the case - if faced with multiple aggressors then the choice of reload timing could just be critical.
 

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Most people who shoot while in a gunfight, think they have fired far fewer rounds than was the case. Friend thought he had fired about 5 when he had fired 15. Not unusual.

I refuse to clutter my mind with information that is unimportant. If all three of my carry guns are empty, hopefully I have fought my way to my vehicle, and have retreived my rifle...tho in reality, if my opponents can shoot, I am likely toast.
 

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I always count rounds when I'm at the range...but during the few IDPA like & steel plate matches I've shot, I've lost track of how many rounds were in the magazine.
And that's just fun training....
....If it were for real, and there were multiple bad guys, I would try to shoot my way to cover & then reload. If there were one bad guy then what ever the outcome, it would probably be over with one magazine anyway.
 

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Applegate/Fairbairn's Shainghai police were a totally different story than the CCW. I think if you go after any surviving BG's with a stiletto, or pistol-whip their heads into gray goo, you may have a bit of a problem..... :chairshot Much of A&F's thinking was in going from 0-60 in a heartbeat successfully. My guess would be it (reloading)wasn't addressed, since a speedy reload would be taken as common sense for someone seriously following their way of thinking. "Know thy gear..." They didn't talk about clubbing or pistol-whipping either.......

Anyhow, shoot 'til they go down/slide-lock, and reload.
 

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i think i would know but maybe not... either way im shooting to slide lock then reloading tac relaoding i just dont dig i mean the gun was working maybe i only got 1 more in it maybe 3 but why dump a mag that was working to slam another home that might not
 

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My 3 cents worth

My learned defensive shooting technique is whatever works for me.
I do not ever try to count expended rounds.
Because I know that "counting" will likely never work when the S.H.T.F.
The slide locking back should trigger an immediate auto response to reload.
I am ALWAYS extra careful about shot placement since I often carry a European SIG P220 w/ the mag release on the butt.
That requires lots more manual dexterity to effect a necessary lightning fast reload.
Like anything else that we humans attempt...it can be done swiftly with repetition, practice, & good motor/muscle memory.
Naturally, common sense dictates that it would be ideal to have the "business" already ended before any panic reload is necessary.
Since all of my primary carry guns are single stack .45 & NOT double stack "other calibers" ~ I personally would always "drop" a partially expended magazine (after there were "Shots Fired") in favor of a full one should there happen to be be a lull in the defensive shooting scenario.
That is just me...I don't expect everyone to agree with me or to follow my way of thinking.
 

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''In extremis'' - would you be aware of your round count? If I was using a revo I would know - it's an old old habit from years of compo, and occurs whether I like it or not. But a semi? Not so sure.
You'll never know if you will be able to count rounds till you're in the middle of a sh*t storm, at which point you'll have other things to worry about. Even if you have been through it before it maybe different the next time.

Basically your brain will be demanding as much information about the threat as possible, everything else will be on the back burner.

Ergo, train as if you will not know the round count. For me this means:
Any time I get click/no bang - > emergency reload or wet reload.
Any time I scan/assess and see no threats and I'm in good cover and I've run thru my comms drill and I think my mag if half empty or more, or I don't know the condition tac reload.
 

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I count because I was taught to count back when I was taught to shoot. I've done it ever since, and don't even really think about it, now. Whether you count or not, all that really matters is that you know exactly what you are going to do when the ammo gets low, and train for it.
 

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I dont think that counting rounds in a shootout is even considered by anyone that has ever been in one. Thats probably why the guys that have been in them never even mentioned it.

Several officers in my dept were involved in a shootout in January this year. The perp killed his grandfather by cutting his throat and then shot at a cop that stopped him for a broken tailight. He missed the cop and fled the scene. The call (officer needs assistance, shots fired)was put out and officer s from several agencys responded.

He was eventually forced off of the road where he fled into a field and engaged several cops with a 12 guage. When it was said and done, he lay in the field having been hit with 1 .45 and 2 .223's. He still lives and was recently discharged form the hospital.

In the investigation of the shoot, not ONE single cop out of 6 different shooters could remember how many rounds they shot. One said that he was amazed when he went to slide lock on his Glock, another commented that he had thought he only shot 3 times, when in fact he shot 9 shots. One with a shotgun emptied it and was fumbling around in his gear bag looking for more ammo when it ended and argued with the investigators that he had only shot 5 times when in fact he had dome a reload and shot 10.

Fact of the matter was...noone really knew. Consider the fact that several windows and lightbars were shot out by the perp who was just shooting at any and everything and that the cops were ducking for cover the whole time and trying not to get shot.

I think that discussion of round count is mostly for the sake of discussion and maybe it works for competition purposes but when the fit hits the shan it all goes out with the rest of the theories...
 

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HotGuns

I agree
Don't forget that we have a few wars to look back on also.
And in a hot firefight soldiers could not count rounds & they were getting shot at more often tha police officers.
Not that getting shot at is anything that most people will ever get used to.
 
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