Cross-Draw
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I've always been a little worried about the gun already being pointed at me in the event of a gun grab; so, I generally stay away from cross draw or shoulder carry. There are some really nice rigs out there though.
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I like the cross draw since I am a driver, easy access with the seat belt on. The gun grab thing is easy, either don't allow anybody in arms length, or have a thumb strap. A swift kick to the twins would also discourage the gun grab scenario.CombatEffective said:
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Valid points. I can see where you would like it as a driver as you would be seated ina vehicle most of the time. As an officer I have to get close to folks sometimes thus making the grab scenario something I have to think about a bit more than some.Super Trucker said:
Have you seen any of those holsters that fasten onto the seatbelt?
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I can see if the rig is for horizontal carry, but is a vertical really that easy to snatch? Other thing against horizontal rig-I was making a stop at the FBI place here as some of the agents were getting back from practice. As I was getting ready to jump out of the van, an agent was leaning in to his car and fiddling with something inside. I happened to look over and was staring down his muzzle. The .45 bore certainly looks cavernous from that angle. 
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I love cross draw....
Kewl Idea For Car Carry
http://www.grassburr.com Check it out and surf around the site!
I can't use a cross draw because I can't get my arms across my gut (for which I drank lots of beer and worked hard to achieve LOL) to make the draw. That's not such a big deal, but for the car I found THIS superb idea:Variable said:
http://www.grassburr.com Check it out and surf around the site!
Cross Draw Unsafe?
Whereas with the draw from a strongside hip holster, the muzzle remains pointed at the ground initially and swings up in line with the target until the sight picture can be acquired. OR if close enough and urgent enough, the gun can be fired nearly at hip level in a "point shot."
Sure it is if the BG is standing close enough to you. Which of course means that you have screwed up somehow to begin with. But think of this, the crossdraw is inherently UNSAFE in that in the act of a normal draw you will in actuality "sweep" everbody next to you with the muzzle of a loaded gun BEFORE that muzzle comes into line with the target or object of hostilities and likely in the heat of an actual combat draw your finger may very well be on the trigger. In an IDPA match this is grounds for a match DQ and you get sent home. In real life it may lead to a criminal charge and or a lawsuit.scratchy wilson said:
Whereas with the draw from a strongside hip holster, the muzzle remains pointed at the ground initially and swings up in line with the target until the sight picture can be acquired. OR if close enough and urgent enough, the gun can be fired nearly at hip level in a "point shot."
Proper crossdraw
If you do not know how to present a firearm, you should not carry one. Presenting a firearm in a safe manner is the responsibility of everyone who carrys. Gun comes from a near vertical crossdraw holster, is turned 90 degrees and pushed at the target. Qulaified with a BHP and Hume JIT on Saturday....standing next to a nationally known trainer who has been in the business for about 25 years.
A proper cross draw presentation, with a proper holster, sweeps no one.
Don't use horizontal cross draw or anything near horizontal.
Baloney!!!ExSoldier762 said:
If you do not know how to present a firearm, you should not carry one. Presenting a firearm in a safe manner is the responsibility of everyone who carrys. Gun comes from a near vertical crossdraw holster, is turned 90 degrees and pushed at the target. Qulaified with a BHP and Hume JIT on Saturday....standing next to a nationally known trainer who has been in the business for about 25 years.
A proper cross draw presentation, with a proper holster, sweeps no one.
Don't use horizontal cross draw or anything near horizontal.
Stay cooool REAL coool...EASY, ACTION!
Hey, KC? Don't get bent out of shape here, okay? I don't carry cross draw and never will. But there is a reason that IDPA forbids them in matches, and it is as I've stated. Neither will they allow shoulder holsters (horizontal or vertical) or belly bags.
Proper holster? Of course. Proper presentation? Forgive me, but there is an old OLD saying in the army. Goes back to the days of George Armstrong Custer: No plan survives the first contact....intact. Under textbook conditions a cross draw can be presented so as to only cover the target. And it's fast, too. Ask Doc Holliday. But it's not too secure especially where the pre-draw action is very close and likely the conditions are not going to be representative of "textbook." I think the draw conditions favoring a strong side presentation, even for a "point shot" outnumber those for cross draw the sole exception being for seated in a vehicle. Especially where the range is "contact close."
'Course I don't know how many bad guys are into the martial arts or how many YAKUZA (Japanese mob) you're apt to run into, but a crossdraw just fits so neatly into a whole slew of "disarm and counter" scenarios. For one, you're off your "center line" with your draw hand/arm being on the same side as the non-firing hand so you're badly off balance. So using body techniques to retain the gun is much more difficult since you're starting from a position of weakness.
Also, I don't know how many retention holsters are available for the cross draw, but it seems to me that retention (using body techniques) is a heckuva lot easier (with a bit of training) when the draw is strongside.
You get a cookie if you can tell me where my title comes from!KC135 said:
Hey, KC? Don't get bent out of shape here, okay? I don't carry cross draw and never will. But there is a reason that IDPA forbids them in matches, and it is as I've stated. Neither will they allow shoulder holsters (horizontal or vertical) or belly bags.
Proper holster? Of course. Proper presentation? Forgive me, but there is an old OLD saying in the army. Goes back to the days of George Armstrong Custer: No plan survives the first contact....intact. Under textbook conditions a cross draw can be presented so as to only cover the target. And it's fast, too. Ask Doc Holliday. But it's not too secure especially where the pre-draw action is very close and likely the conditions are not going to be representative of "textbook." I think the draw conditions favoring a strong side presentation, even for a "point shot" outnumber those for cross draw the sole exception being for seated in a vehicle. Especially where the range is "contact close."
'Course I don't know how many bad guys are into the martial arts or how many YAKUZA (Japanese mob) you're apt to run into, but a crossdraw just fits so neatly into a whole slew of "disarm and counter" scenarios. For one, you're off your "center line" with your draw hand/arm being on the same side as the non-firing hand so you're badly off balance. So using body techniques to retain the gun is much more difficult since you're starting from a position of weakness.
Also, I don't know how many retention holsters are available for the cross draw, but it seems to me that retention (using body techniques) is a heckuva lot easier (with a bit of training) when the draw is strongside.
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KC135,
I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just trying to discuss this issue; so, please understand that I am just asking questions and making points for pure academic purposes here.
Qualifying and gunfighting are two completely different things. It would seem to me that crossdraw would take longer to get on target with than straight draw. Do you have any time comparisons for first shot times from the draw from the two carry positions.
When I draw, I bring my strong hand with the gun together with my support hand directly in front of my torso as if I were clapping hands and form my two handed shooting grip. I then drive the pistol towards the target and pick up the front sight slightly before my arms are extended so that I can break the shot as my arms fully extend. In an emergency, I can break the shot before full extension.
How are you presenting the the firearm to the target? Where in the drawstroke are you obtaining your two-hand shooting grip? It just seems to me that it would take more motion to make the crossdraw because you have to reach across your body, and the presentation of the muzzle to the target seems like it would take longer. This is presuming you are standing centered to the target. If the target is on your oblique the crossdraw may be as fast or faster depending upon which oblique is in question.
Once again, I am asking for my own edification and not trying to pick a fight.
While I'm not a "nationally" known instructor (unless you count these forums in which case I'm internationally known ), I am a certified law enforcement firearms instructor and have taught officers from all over my region of the state.
On another note, I am interested in the Hume JIT holster. I have a few questions about it as I have considered obtaining one for my 4006. I don't want to sidetrack this thread, but does it have a sight rail sewn into it? I can't tell from the pics. Have you ever had the front sight snag when drawing. Feel free to PM the answers to me if you even care to answer.
I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just trying to discuss this issue; so, please understand that I am just asking questions and making points for pure academic purposes here.
Qualifying and gunfighting are two completely different things. It would seem to me that crossdraw would take longer to get on target with than straight draw. Do you have any time comparisons for first shot times from the draw from the two carry positions.
When I draw, I bring my strong hand with the gun together with my support hand directly in front of my torso as if I were clapping hands and form my two handed shooting grip. I then drive the pistol towards the target and pick up the front sight slightly before my arms are extended so that I can break the shot as my arms fully extend. In an emergency, I can break the shot before full extension.
How are you presenting the the firearm to the target? Where in the drawstroke are you obtaining your two-hand shooting grip? It just seems to me that it would take more motion to make the crossdraw because you have to reach across your body, and the presentation of the muzzle to the target seems like it would take longer. This is presuming you are standing centered to the target. If the target is on your oblique the crossdraw may be as fast or faster depending upon which oblique is in question.
Once again, I am asking for my own edification and not trying to pick a fight.
While I'm not a "nationally" known instructor (unless you count these forums in which case I'm internationally known
), I am a certified law enforcement firearms instructor and have taught officers from all over my region of the state.On another note, I am interested in the Hume JIT holster. I have a few questions about it as I have considered obtaining one for my 4006. I don't want to sidetrack this thread, but does it have a sight rail sewn into it? I can't tell from the pics. Have you ever had the front sight snag when drawing. Feel free to PM the answers to me if you even care to answer.
CE, guess you would have to watch me. About 16 students watched as the staff qualified, (modeled) qualification.
Also certified LEO inst, rifle, handgun., shotgun, Glock Instructor, NRA TC, Member IALEFI, ASLET, handgun retention inst, etc.
Hands come together when gun is clear and horizontal with grip frame vertical to the ground.
Also certified LEO inst, rifle, handgun., shotgun, Glock Instructor, NRA TC, Member IALEFI, ASLET, handgun retention inst, etc.
Hands come together when gun is clear and horizontal with grip frame vertical to the ground.
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KC,
Okay, I'd love to see a frame by frame or video of your draw stroke.
Okay, I'd love to see a frame by frame or video of your draw stroke.
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