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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As a concealed carry gun owner I was curious about a situation.
Let's say you're walking and a group of 2-3 guys surround you and threaten to beat you up.
One throws a punch and knocks you down. At this point I would be fearing of great bodily harm or worse. Would it be justifiable to shoot as you are outnumbered and even though you don't see any weapons present.

I hear about these stories a lot and whether they just want to rob you or not, the victim is usually left pretty beaten.
What would you do in a scenario like this?

Thanks for the insight.
 

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That right there is sufficient. I'm defending against a clear impending violent felony against me, using the degree of force I deem necessary to stop it, no matter what it costs them, even if it kills them. But then, I live in a free state, along those lines. Nice to be free.

AOJ. Ability to harm me? Absolutely, with three of them, visibly "armed" with man-made tools or not. Opportunity to do so? Absolutely, with them having cornered me and in close proximity. Jeopardy? Darned tootin', including the clear threat and manifest intent to do me serious harm. Game's on, at that point.

If I'm able, I'm not giving a single one of them the ability to move one inch closer. If they don't immediately go prone and compliant (or instantly eject and leave), the police/EMT/coroner folks are going to have some work to do. They've had their warnings, via the statutes, and via my drawing. Any delays could get me killed. Pass, on that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Would your actions be different if it was verbal threats vs actual physical.
Since you still believed bodily harm could occur. Let's say they are just asking for your money at this point with threats.
Still no weapons involved.
 

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To my way of thinking, a three-on-one surrounding by a group acting in concert constitutes physical. Had it been "merely" verbal only, without the three acting together in any way, without the cornering, with the proximity? It would certainly be different, yes. The beauty of being a citizen and having our "reasonable man" standards in the statutes is that it's WE, the citizens, who get to determine where that dividing line of "threat" really is, and whether it's been crossed. Subject to later review (by the DA/jury) of course.


Had it just been one single person sitting down, say, at a restaurant table over yonder, muttering under his breath how he was going to beat me up, but there were no other threat indicators to corroborate "serious threat" in my mind, and there were no other folks with him, I likely wouldn't deem it a threat beyond words. I'd still be on guard, but I don't believe it would justify any overt act on my part, beyond leaving, maintaining distance/visual, and being prepared to defend if it did blow into something.

Had it been three people in the same situation, sitting down passively but likewise dishing up "fighting" words, it would depend on the seriousness, the demeanor, etc. Three-on-one is a seriously different game, generally speaking. (Though, of course, any single person can be psychotic and armed.) I'd take it much more seriously, with three folks acting in concert, in support of each others' words. It would come down to how reasonable I thought my impressions of the overall threat were, given all that I was hearing/seeing. Still, though, in such a situation, I wouldn't feel it would be justified to draw. If they were seriously attentive and evil-looking (ie, plotting), I might well feel compelled enough to place my hand on my weapon as I backed away, but this would completely depend on the severity of their demeanor. Within yards, folks sitting down at a table can clear the distance in no time flat, hence I might well feel hands-on the grip would be justifiable at that point, in simple preparation for what was manifestly coming.

But, three-on-one outside, in an alley, cornered, with them all acting in unison, supporting the direct threat to violently harm me ... yea, that's pretty much case closed, at that point. No statute in my state demands I suffer a three-on-one beating out of screaming distance. Ain't gonna happen, if I'm able to resist it.

But that's me, in my state with my statutes restricting my actions. Every state's different. As is everyone's physical skills and competency, physical fitness and health (ie, with respect to injuries), determination of what one feels is sufficient threat, etc. And every situation's different. Much depends on the specific demeanor, displayed attitudes, exactly what's said and how it's said, proximity, and the whole shebang.
 

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I pulled a gun on three once before they even talked to me. It was 0300 and I was getting my boat ready in a friends garage for a day of fishing. I saw 3 losers walking down an alley with glowing neon "FELON" lights on their foreheads and when they got to the garage I had my hand gun on my side. They walked into the garage and while one tried to engage me in conversation the other two tried getting around in back of me, at which time, I displayed the handgun and convinced them to move on.

I discreetly followed them and saw them break into a car a block away and steal a stereo. Calling 911 and giving description/direction all three were pinched by my on-duty bretheren, one of them had been armed with a .25 auto that he never pulled out on me. All 3 had just gotton out of the joint and had extensive records for burglary and robbery. This is how fast it can happen and how bad it can happen. Who knows I might not be here if I hadnt seen them coming and been ready. Theres no legal requirement for you to take a butt kicking to use a weapon to defend yourself and/or getting disarmed or worse. When you see such trouble coming you will know it but you have to listen to that little part of your brain at the stem.

You'll see those neon lights on their foreheads as long as your really looking.
 

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I pulled a gun on three once before they even talked to me. It was 0300 and I was getting my boat ready in a friends garage for a day of fishing. I saw 3 losers walking down an alley with glowing neon "FELON" lights on their foreheads and when they got to the garage I had my hand gun on my side. They walked into the garage and while one tried to engage me in conversation the other two tried getting around in back of me, at which time, I displayed the handgun and convinced them to move on.
BTDT, myself, on the one occasion I was forced to draw to warn off a two-on-one attack against me. Strong-arm robbery attempt in a parking lot. It played out much the same, with the one guy heading straight-on while the other swung around behind and to my right. Displayed and suggested they go elsewhere. They did.


You'll see those neon lights on their foreheads as long as your really looking.
People-watching skills are highly underrated. Very important. Can't see the signals if we don't look for them or don't know what to look for.
 

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Thanks for your input. Your reaction is about the same as mine I just like to makeep sure I'm thinking correctly on situations.
If you really want to stress your awareness, preparation, judgment, and close-quarters skills in such situations, consider a sort of force-on-force course designed to train you to effectively deal with such things.

Check out Suarez Int'l and their CQB type training, among others. There are a few good ones around. Suarez has a couple coming up soon, too.

Some reviews in the Training forum exist, if you hunt for them.
 

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First off, your situational awareness would be such that you don't allow yourself to be trapped in that situation. Don't put yourself in dangerous situations, try to avoid, evade, flee, what ever you can do to escape. If all fails and you find yourself in that situation, three on one would be disparity of force in anyone's mind, unless your Chuck Norris. Still there are some things you can do if you have time, only you would be able to assess the situation to determine that. When they get close, let them know you are armed and will defend yourself if they persist. Even three unarmed guys don't want to go up against one with a gun. If you have done all these things, and nothing has deterred them, and they move in to attack, then you do what you have to do to live.
 

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First off, your situational awareness would be such that you don't allow yourself to be trapped in that situation. Don't put yourself in dangerous situations, try to avoid, evade, flee, what ever you can do to escape. If all fails and you find yourself in that situation, three on one would be disparity of force in anyone's mind, unless your Chuck Norris. Still there are some things you can do if you have time, only you would be able to assess the situation to determine that. When they get close, let them know you are armed and will defend yourself if they persist. Even three unarmed guys don't want to go up against one with a gun. If you have done all these things, and nothing has deterred them, and they move in to attack, then you do what you have to do to live.
This is what I was about to say. Situational Awareness keeps you away from these scenarios. I am 71 and never, ever been close to the scenario. I watch where I go and do not go where my instincts tell me not to go. Nothing in this world is worth my going somewhere at predetermined times of day or night where there is a possiblity of such scenarios.
Getting off the subject, however, do they still teach spelling and comprehension in our school system?
 

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There is a member of another firearms forum who was beaten to near death by a group of thugs, for no reason other than looking different than most other people. She was born a hermaphrodite and was even badly abused by her own parents because of it. She was beaten in public with others around. Nobody came to her aid. She was left with no short term memory and has to walk around with a notebook to record her memories.

I'm shooting.
 

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First off, your situational awareness would be such that you don't allow yourself to be trapped in that situation.
We might be surprised at how quickly a group of seasoned predators can surround you. I do not think SA has any real value, here. Yes, you don't go into a biker bar in a pink IZOD shirt, but generally predators have done this 'ganging up' before.

This kind of situation is one of those that you don't have any choice. I would be more likely to use a firearm in a disparity of force situation that many others. You have no options, and unlike perhaps one irate person, can not be talked down and there's no deescalating. I'm drawing and shooting at the first opportunity.

Of course if possible toss your wallet and head off the opposite way - that may work, say if you're in a place with people around. But dark, hemmed in, don't hesitate.
 

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Did you ever see Sleep Away Camp?
I never have, but I just looked it up the plot on Wikipedia. That's a little too bizarre even for my tastes. And as anyone on here who has read my postings, I am pretty bizarre.
 

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This is what I was about to say. Situational Awareness keeps you away from these scenarios. I am 71 and never, ever been close to the scenario. I watch where I go and do not go where my instincts tell me not to go. Nothing in this world is worth my going somewhere at predetermined times of day or night where there is a possiblity of such scenarios.
Getting off the subject, however, do they still teach spelling and comprehension in our school system?
Do they still teach spelling and comprehension in our school system? No. They quit doing that about 20 years after you and I graduated from high school. It is obvious everywhere you look.
 

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one of the many advantages of being a grey-headed citizen who gets all the Senior's discounts..."hey, I'm an old man! there were three of them! i could barely pull the trigger for this arthritis in my finger." Durn tootin' i'd be shootin'.
 

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Three/two on one and you are floored by a punch?

For me, it's time to act!! No second thoughts, no hesitation!! No 100% risk free choices here. I choose to let the cops sort it out.

The worst case scenario is: If you are not successful in engaging them with your weapon you stand a good chance of ending up with more than a severe beating.
 

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This is what I was about to say. Situational Awareness keeps you away from these scenarios. I am 71 and never, ever been close to the scenario. I watch where I go and do not go where my instincts tell me not to go. Nothing in this world is worth my going somewhere at predetermined times of day or night where there is a possiblity of such scenarios.
Getting off the subject, however, do they still teach spelling and comprehension in our school system?
Haha, you misspelled possibility.

But you're describing the 3-S rule not SA.

Consider the times when your SA fails.

1. You're in line in the grocery store and leaning on your cart. You can not see behind you, or much on the side. A BG or two can look you over rather easily and decide if you're a 'mark'.

2. You've taken your groceries to your car and you are bent over putting them in the back. BGs love this scenario and no matter how -alert- you are, they can see you and size you up and you can't see them.

3. You get into your car and haven't closed your door yet. You may even be starting to buckle up or put your hat on the passenger seat. You are extremely vulnerable, being seated, maybe strapped in and BGs have cover (lots of parked cars) and can appear at your door in a fraction of a second. Even if you get the door shut and buckle up before starting the car, it's unlikely you will have locked your door.

4. You go to get your mail at the group drop off box. Many people get involved looking at what mail they got and lose the sense of their surroundings. I have to tell my partner not to do this EVERY time, else they walk into traffic coming back to the car. But they do it every time (a bad habit).

So, in those three scenarios, you are very vulnerable and almost unable to exercise your SA due to your posture and position.

How do you deal? Survey the store before you get in line. Be willing to leave your groceries if you feel there are unsavory types around. Have a store employee help you load your groceries. They're quite willing to do so. Partner up at every opportunity. Have your SO trained in firearm use and run scenarios, assign tasks when driving.

So it's not the SA per se that works, but trying to eliminate position and posture and other events that handicap your SA.
 
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